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From what I remember there was considerable discussions about the "even-ness" of the war in numbers. Aside from that there was indeed my comment on not liking Riombaras IG reasons for war, as in that they didn't bother to come up with actual reasons instead of just joining (though getting them into the war was the goal from all sides).

Its the only things I can remember/find, but might have missed something.

It became rather OOC as far as i remember reading - which i am too lazy to refer back now anyway. But the point is not to bring up old qualms, but to hopefully make everyone understand the whole point of the game, where the focus should be one everyone. Not just the character, nor only the realm, nor even their alliances. Effort should be made to make it fun for the whole continent if that's possible. Because focusing on just the fun within the realm further enhances the will to only be famous himself/herself instead of truly sincerely want everyone to enjoy.

I guess that's the only way to bring battlemaster to the old self. There is a reason why many who tried but gave up and left. It is all the winning and losing thing going on. Velax himself in Far East is onto good path, but i found it too much of a scripted thing. I know because i was there for a while and two of the biggest rulers collaborate to create the plot line. Before the icing thing started that is. It is the spontaneity in Beluaterra that starts to attract people again. Now the only way is to maintain it as well as attract more.

What i saw was always some people made lots of comments IG that is very much OOC imo. I don't know. Regardless, good luck guys. Maybe the next time i am back, things will be different. :)

There were a few of you, including you Noldorin that complained in the previous thread when Rio joined in the war against the northern. Correct me if i am wrong.

Caelum joining against Nothoi if not gangbang then i don't know what is. Regardless, that's not the point. At one point, surely one side will appear to be 'gangbanging' the other. It is imo how the rulers create excuses to make it more balanced and fun for everyone. There are tons of instances when it happened, and it can still be 'balanced' in a way or ended quickly(without the losing side losing too much), if they try to.

The point i am trying to bring it is how people complained about Rio joining in the southern side with valid reasons but somehow turn a blind eye on Spearhold and now Caelum joining in albeit with valid reasons as well.

I can take any excuses or funny stories one create, hence how i played Pavel and readily actually accept that i put Melhed at risk for extinction. For one, i was hoping that someone will join in the fun and prevent that from happening, which is why i was very glad Fronen did instead of the dull BT we used to have.

Though i cannot accept how one being hypocrite in whining and criticize someone else way of playing but in return do the same thing themselves(or accept it when it favors them). Regardless, i am not in the game, so i do not know the full story, but that is how i see from some of the postings. I do not wish for anyone to quit - obviously, but perhaps hopefully change the mindset of how some approach the game. :)

Yes, they did have a reason.

One of the things about this game is that you may never know the reasons why some people do what they do. That doesn't mean that they don't have reasons. It just means you don't know them.

Of course they do. Everyone does. The thing i would like to point out was that the Thals didn't complained about it. That was it. :)

But then... Tandaros' quitting tells me somewhere along the road we've failed so - inside the lines of the IC possible - I'd be interested to hear what suggestions there are to increase the fun for all on this continent. We won't stop trying to win, that'd take all of the fun out of the game but I hope everyone knows that winning does not come by grace of devs or admins and had Tandaros played in the realms he accuses of such things, the idea would sound as ridiculous to him as it does to me.

Sorry to bring up old miseries, but i found it amusing that nobody complained when Spearhold join against the southerners with no valid reasons but nobody complained about it. But most thalmarkins were damn pissed when Rio had rather valid reasons to join against the northerners, despite allying them with liar Melites.

Regardless, i was actually thinking about coming back into the game slowly and remain as observers, but i guessed i quit for a reason, and reading all these made me think that nothing has changed.

And to clarify a few old qualms. Pavel was made as a big bad schemer. People close to him knows that very well especially Maya. It's just his character and the intention was there to make it interesting in BT. He also had big qualms with Thals over their histories with Melhed. Yes, it can be said that the Thals did not felt so, but that's just their POV, and i am not here to argue that. The Fact is, Melhed has not forgiven the Thals. Never actually did. They hanged on to the treaties etc to survive, as any would especially in the medieval age. And i ESPECIALLY would like to believe that Noldorin wanted Melhed to survive because he sees conflict it can create, so conflict it did create. So to turn back and say Melhed shouldn't this and that is just plain absurd. And i don't actually see any problem with playing out such character.

The sad thing i see with lots of players here were of those that are happy when they are on the winning gangbanging side, and whine when they are on the losing side. I will tell you this. I ENJOYED greatly even when Melhed was on the losing side. What makes the Thal so great about scheming to take over the continent and Melhed such a big fat liar for scheming to stop them? That is just you thinking that you are always right and not putting yourself on someone else's shoes. In fact, Melhed sort of tried to stop the Thals to gangbang one realm at a time, and tried to bring every single realm to join in the fun and was given the opportunity when Thalmarkin came up with that scheme.

Regardless, all games(note: not only battlemaster) are infested by such players that just wants to win. Understood, since who doesn't want to. But i have always make it a point to make a decision that keep most people enjoying it at the same time. Can you say the say, especially on the Thalmarkin side that it is fun for everyone around the continent, or only within thalmarkin itself only?

I do not intend to attack anyone and i apologize if i did. It might sound offensive, but i do hope that some of you can actually think about what i said. Some of us quit the game(and i am not self pitying) because this game has became so much of winning and losing - where battlemaster isn't supposed to be about that at all.

Bug exploit. Fixed now.

So, won't the player get punished or the region gets taken or something? Just like that? Hmmm. I actually saw it used frequently in a lot of other continent, mostly they just switched to the realm taking over or their ally. It has happened in the war island, the far east etc, but we all thought that's part of the strategy.

And also the Outo's family until they followed the Fingolfin's. :p

[Ivore]

In a good way, i guess. I was stressed because of how serious and committed i took the responsibility to play the game as well as i could. But good things have to come to an end. Below is the letter i sent out in some continent where i was more active.

"Actually, i been wanting to do this since some time ago. This game has lost its attraction to me even since when Pavel was still king of Melhed. I am glad beluaterra now has more and more committed characters as well as active ones. I am proud to say that i, along with some of you played a part in that. However, i just could not find it interesting anymore despite a lot of the things i tried to do. Cunning, paranoia, murderous, i have tried all sorts of different ways to play it.

Perhaps the game is filled with lots of characters that i do not actually like, i do not know. I always enjoy playing with those that always try to make this game fun for everyone, but there are big number of players that seem to just join the winning side so that they can brag and almost to the stance of abusive after that. I don't even know if that is the reason i lost interest in this game, perhaps it is just me getting tired of trying to make things happen. Hence, can be shown by the lack of discipline i recently had.

I will be pausing all my characters in the near future, but don't worry, i will make the transition as smooth as possible. I will post more on the forum if you are interested, otherwise, good luck and enjoy the game! :)"

And this thread is to thank all of you who made this game fun while it last. I will try my best to name all of you, but i have memory slightly better than a fish.

My first fun encounter was with the player of Ivore when i first joined long time ago. He was the one who showed me there are more than a way to skin a cat, or rather play the game. He also showed that every players have the responsibility to try to make it fun for the others. Turning up in Atamara for my first character was the right decision, despite the predictable nature of the continent. All thanks to him for always trying to make it unpredictable.

Then there was Kabrinski's family for trying to play it differently. I learned how to have a controversial character here and always trying to do the big thing. This is when i know by staying in an active realm, i couldn't actually do much. This is when i decided to venture into those realms deemed ruled by a character who would just rather sit there do nothing. I have always said again and again that it takes a lot to be a ruler. The said ruler has to have the will to make it fun for everyone. And hence, i started plotting. It failed, but i learned.

Then, i started meeting a lot more characters in Beluaterra. The liar Fingolfin's family(sorry, had to take a jibe :p), the JeVondair's family who always try to seduce everyone, the Tandaros' family who are always paranoid and controversial, as well as many incoming characters that are out to make it fun for everyone such as the Morlok, Octavius, Tezokian, Cheniers, and the rest. It is here that i realized there are still a lot out there that are rather committed. Perhaps we are all looking for the right place to start.

However, this is also when i realized a lot took this game more serious than they really should. Especially in the current war island. People started throwing accusations IC instead of OOC. I myself was accused for lots of things which is not rather uncalled for. That aside, i think i am just tired trying too hard, and that is just the way i am, trying to do the best if i want to do something, or not to do at all.

I am sorry if i left out any of you here, but i am sure you played a big part in creating a good atmosphere for my game play. Blame the fish's brain, please. For now, i just need a rest from this game and i thank all of you once again for making it fun for me.

Cheers and have a good battle! :)

Well thats not entirely true. I (well, Thalmarkin and allies), have gotten rid of 2 Fronen rulers which opposed us, King Yeux in old Melhed, the ruler of Sint, and Pavel would have (like it or not) been forced out sooner or later, either by treaty or his own people for not signing a treaty. But well, it certainly requires winning the war, or otherwise the position just get even stronger.

As well, those serious/critical wounds or prisons does get people out of rulership, and in need of reappintment. Fingolfin has just been quite lucky with very very many wounds, and still being back in business just before the voting would have started :)

Aside from that, he was quite close to get protested out once, but that was taken care of too! :p

King Yeux went inactive, ruler of Sint has always been inactive. Only Pavel was actually killed in a glorious(sorry had to add that in :p) battle. Pavel was surprisingly quite famous in the Melhed and i would like to believe a lot of players there rp to get his position, but isn't actually going to do it soon.

Critical wounds is the only way to get a ruler that is not hero out of the position. And even that, it takes another that are willing to step up to take over from the ruler.

That's actually one of the wilder ideas I've had in the past: All council-level characters are automatically considered heroes for the purposes of death in battle. Easily avoidable, however, by just not fighting. And since rulers and other council members are often older characters, it's not unreasonable that they not march with an army. Many of them just can't keep up.

That's true. I guess that leaves infiltrating the only way to 'kill' the ruler then? But actually, we should probably brainstorm for a way to get rid of a ruler other than becoming more famous than him(via voting). I think it is one of the reason there are stagnation all over the continent. Fingolfin is doing a good job in making the continent fun, but i am referring to the other continents, where the 'older' set of players seem to stayed on. Perhaps if they are unwilling to let the new blood take over, something can be done to make them 'die' or 'leave'?

Run to Nothoi! They seem to harbour all kinds of unwanted people :p

And more reasons for war!

No! Go to Spearhold and Rio instead! Rally the men to get the head of Fingolfin!!! :p Actually, all rulers should be a hero instead. Otherwise, there is no way to get them off :(

I have the exact same sentiment. Kudos to those who made the decision in Taselak and Sandalak. The players in all the other continents should learn from this. Why destroy a realm when you can let them live and having much more conflict in the future? That is what make this game fun!

Regardless if Ikalak survives or not(which one shouldn't care too much in this game), but it is such a decision that creates the most RP chances and scenarios in the future!

Yes, that's a better word at it. Bending the 'truth'. And the matter of fact is, Fingolfin repeatedly 'lied' by focusing the matter on something else. Such as those lands that were 'loaned' to the Thals by Melhed, where he conveniently chose to declare it his. So that say that he never lies is a bit of a loyal servant, especially OOCly.

Chéniers only very scarcely lied. Overglorified themselves, sure. Picked which facts to put emphasis on and which to ignore, always. But straight-out lies, very scarcely.

Their problem was that their enemies' lies were more believable than the truth, and how really everyone with a history on the continent has mud on his name, whether out of malice or by trying to go with the lesser evils during desperate times (which came about routinely on with recurring invasions). Pretty much every realm that endured over the years has plenty of stuff to be called out against them. It's easy to ignore that an evil was really one much lesser than all its alternatives when peacetime has returned and every leader is just too eager to solidify his rule by focusing his nobles on an outside threat. Oldest trick in the book, really.

I tend to consider that the main factors in Chéniers' bad rep on BT were 1) chauvinism 2) arrogance 3) ambition. It's easy to hate a guy that clearly considers you to be inferior, that isn't afraid to be controversial, and who actually manages to wield large influence over (what was) the #1 superpower. They never just picked on anyone for the fun of it, though, their attitude was a nemesis magnet. People would get annoyed with them and try to bring them down. They'd retaliate.

After all, what's to gain by stating obvious lies that nobody will believe anyways? If they cared to influence foreigners, which they scarcely did, they'd only have told believable lies, if lying would have been their intent. Once you make an accusation that sounds too wild to be true, you lose all credibility and influence towards your recipients. Instead, Chéniers (Nicolas and Guillaume, mostly) would simply say the truth, no matter little they expected the others to believe it, because, after all, what did they care if lowly foreigners believed them or not?

The fact is, almost all rulers lied to protect their spot. Those who said no here are obviously lying. It is how you portray it and how you put it in perspective. Most tend to amplify the fault of others to cover their own. But i think the downfall of Cheniers was that he does not gather a lot of ally. I lied a lot IC but i also maintain a certain amount of allies regardless of the lies. Chenier due to his arrogance brushed out all allies and head out to achieve his target alone. Pavel despite infamous in the continent, has rather lots of supporters within his own realm, and those tend to spill over as he uses his realm mates to gather support from other realms. Please come back and join thalmarkin. Dislodge King Fingolfin, pretty please. Haha

This should belong to King Pavel. :p Silver Nightblade of Betrayal - Weapon   

I don't think your problem is with players and their reactions. It's rather how game mechanics work.
My personal concern is that once realms get really big they enter stagnation which in real world is broken by realm's fracturing but in BM this stagnation probably might just go on for years.
If there was some incentive to run smaller realms or if huge realms were really hard to manage and not feasible, we'd probably see more dynamic conflict.
Dwilight actually seems very dynamic and fun right now because of all the land grabs, shifting alliances and lots of rogue land to conquer. On the other hand, my second character is on Atamara and that place is boring as hell.

That sounds about right. Big realms have to do the extra to make things happen because of that. Can this be implemented somehow though? The distance from the capital helps to a certain extend but it is not good enough. What about making most of the regions needing someone to tend to its estates to 'maintain' it? Otherwise the control will go down? That will encourage a more dense realm perhaps? Though, that applies more for other continent instead of Dwillight.

I still have my hopes for AT. Big things may be in the making.

As for Dwilight, I don't have a character there right now. If I did have a character in an SA state, I would advocate for militant expansion. Aggressive, militant expansion. Forced change of all realms to theocratic government. Wipe out any realm that harbored a Dishman.

For a character in another realm, I really don't know. I am somewhat stale on current politics.

I just started a character in AT, so i am not sure how it is over there. But if you are in Dwilight, that sounds like a plan. The problem is, most will just give in and convert. Unlike the oppose people have on the Thal rules in Beluaterra. I think it's the will to oppose on a dominant rule that is the key here. The southern war is good because they try to dislodge Luria. The north however.....we all know what happen.