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Messages - Baatarsaikhan

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Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« on: May 28, 2013, 06:16:01 AM »
Apparently nothing at all.

You know, I think we just won one internet.  At the very least we've managed one internet argument trope. :)

Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« on: May 28, 2013, 05:55:15 AM »
I'm sorry.  Can you point out where in any of my posts that I felt it had to be tolerated?

Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« on: May 28, 2013, 05:41:28 AM »
Well, tell you can have your opinion on whether I understood your point or not, and I'll keep my understanding to myself, since it solves any debate on exactly how much of it you think I know.  That and I'd rather not argue what I think you think I think I know.  This thread's already gotten a little too far afield in getting away from whether or not Kas broke the Contract.

As a counter-example, I live in Canada.  Also a  melting pot of different cultures - many of them non-Western.  I HAVE seen individuals of a non-Western background - African, eastern Asian, Russian, middle Eastern and others - march into a crowd of strangers and start yelling out racism.  I've seen CANADIANS do this.  It's popped up at a few different rallies, and at least one riot in the past decade.  Those that do, regardless of background are, also roundly condemned. We also certainly don't sit back and say, "Oh, they're from Country X, it's cool, they just don't share our morals," but here's the kicker, we, like your country DO have free speech laws.

We had to wait until a certain former high school teacher and all-around Nazi apologist and IMO utter twit actually attempted to INCITE violence against Jews for us to be able to deport him under due process under our hate speech laws.

The important thing is that we FOLLOWED our laws.

In contrast, I don't think it's utterly clear that Kas broke the BM laws.  Did he do something I find deplorable?  Yes.  Against the contract?  No.

It's in the same way, like I and others in this thread have been saying, if it's not in the rules, especially clearly extractable from them, then maybe a simple "Hey, it's not against the rules, but it's deeply frowned upon" is all that's needed.  If it's not, THEN we can go look at revising things so that they're clearer.

I do like the simple "No homophobia, racism, sexism, or other hate speech allowed" idea, though.

Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« on: May 28, 2013, 04:50:27 AM »
Good job ignoring the point of the statement! You win a prize.

Were I to start playing an Arabic-speaking online game based in Saudia Arabia, I would spend some time finding out what was acceptable in that culture, rather than just jumping in and start making RPs talking about how much Allah sucks. A tiny modicum of research should be expected if people from other cultures decide to play a game based in a Western country. As opposed to just coming in and talking about "those lazy slant eyes".

No, I caught the point.  I'm dismissive of it, for several reasons that I think are very obvious.

1) You assume research, when the game ONLY requires reading and comprehending the social contract.  It doesn't matter what you THINK I should have to do.  I am required to follow the contract, not your opinion of what I am to do.

2) You assume foreignness, when obliviousness or ignorance works just as well.  This game draws a lot of people from across the internet.  Assuming they are fully aware of where the game is, what is its moral slant (current vs. historical) is based in what aspect of the Contract, again the only thing I;m required to know?

See, in short, my point is that while YOU can apply your morals and codes of behaviour to me however you see fit, the player of the game is bound only within game's social contract.  If it's not within the contract, then no, you're not allowed to apply such.  The contract is not clear as day on this matter, since taking offense at something is as variable as white noise.

Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« on: May 28, 2013, 03:42:23 AM »
If people have to be specifically told in the rules that racism isn't something you should do - in any game - then I fear for humanity. There are no specific rules in the game that say I shouldn't find out where a player lives, drive over there and take a !@#$ on his front doorstep, either, but its probably safe to say it's not something that should be done.

...except that would be actually against most Western RL laws, and likely quite a few Eastern ones too.  Racism is an open topic in many places (contrast Africa vs. NA vs. Europe), and is interpreted in many different ways worldwide.  Legalese aside, it's just as arrogant to apply western ideals to a discussion on morals, especially if it has a tangible outcome on a person's activity, if not everyone in that discussion has bought into those moral viewpoints or is even fully aware of them in the first place.

Making it clear racism in ANY form is bad is better, then making an assumption about people's knowledge of a set of morals or ethics and then punishing people for not conforming to your assumption of their knowledge or agreement.

I think Kwanstein's solution is the simplest to resolve this issue quickly.  Then we can move towards firmly cementing racism as a no-no within the BM contract.

Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« on: May 28, 2013, 01:13:17 AM »
No, I am not. I am exposing my opinion on that matter and saying that I don't know why there's anything against racism and discrimination  in Inalienable Rights or in Social Contract. IMO it should be. That's why I brought Tom's name here.
IMO if the magistrates find a flaw in Social Contract they could/should take it to Tom so next time there would'nt be the need of a discussion.

I see no point in longs discussions here. Denounces here should be simple to decide. It IS a game. We are not deciding the future of the world.

But it is clear to me that my opinion differ - and much - from majority here.

Sorry, Miriam, I'm a little confused as to what you are "not", in reference to the quote.  Would you explain further?  I was only using your quote to better define my position in any case, and not rendering judgement on it.

I think I'm more or less on your side of the argument here, in that advising Tom is certainly a role of the magistrates.  Also that there should be clear language in the contract as to racism.  Ditto as to long discussions.

My personal opinion is that Kas did not break the rules.  Not because the message wasn't racist (which IMO it clearly was), but because the contract isn't clear and/or specific enough on the matter of racism for there to be rules for Kas to break.  So, in this, Kas gets a break.  We should, however, address this in a Contract change/referendum/appeal-to-he-who-is-Tom.  Otherwise we risk basing decisions purely on opinion and personal feeling, rather then clear contract-breaking.  A result of this is expecting new players to not only memorize the Contract, but the entire body of Cases here on the forums AND be able to reasonably predict what the Magistrates will be "opinionating".

Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« on: May 27, 2013, 11:43:41 PM »
Racism should be banned. Endpoint. Any form of racism, any suggestion, any message that suggests discrimination.
Discuss whether or not there was no racism and not if one was offended or if there is a greater or lesser degree of racism.

At the risk of having certain people here who I happen to value their opinion of me, to be much less thoughtful of me, I want to ask:

Is racism banned specifically in the Social Contract? 

If so, mention clause, punish and be done with it.

If not, then by the Contract, he has broken no rules.  Punishing him on the basis of no actual rules-breakage is hardly fair, hardly the role of the magistrates and in a certain light, not much better.  Abusing one's role to punish people for non-illegal (in BM context) OOC actions is, I think we can all agree, not in the spirit of this game or this particular group.

Is it banned via an interpretation of a Social Contract clause?

If so, I think you need to have a very firm basis and legal logic to the path from social contract item through to this particular issue of racism, since it will be precedent from now on.  A clear link between casual racism and the contract would be needed, since you are de-facto linking that to Tom and the Social Contract.

If not, then see above about breaking no rules.

This all said, I think there is a conflation of two questions here, which while being heavily related, are still separate.

1) Does the Social Contract cover racism in whole or in part, and if so, to what extent are Kas' actions in violation of the Contract?

2) To what extent SHOULD the Social Contract cover racism?

Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« on: May 27, 2013, 06:02:39 AM »
Well, speaking as a person brought here looking to see if there has been any Word on the matter by He who is Tom, I must say that I am left with about the same feelings now that I had when I started looking into this.

Speaking as a Caucasian of mongolian decent (although, who isn't?) who is RPing a Mongolian of mixed blood (although, who, wait, I did that joke...), I must say that if this was me dealing with it in character, I might have some pointed words with our realm's diplomat. 

That said, this IS a SMA continent, racism was historically prevalent (So is syphilis the French Disease?  Turkish?  Spanish?  Anyone want to claim this for their country and/or race?  How about a rousing discussion about Blood Libel?), and the phrasing was open enough to be debatable as to who was being racist IMO.

It's not something I would do, I think, but in the context of the rule and the environment, I don't think slapping Kas for this is fair.  Thinkng less of Kas for it?  Sure.  Less of Kas's player?  Fine.  But punishment based on no actual breach of BM's laws or the guidelines for messaging (where racism is not really referenced and no swear words were used) is bluntly unfair.

General Talk / Re: How old are you?
« on: April 07, 2013, 06:13:09 AM »
36, Edmonton, and no, Calgaryu's not better, not if you like some sort of culture. :)

Dwilight / Re: Niselur
« on: April 06, 2013, 05:05:46 AM »
Leo does.

I don't think anyone else does.

Heck, I only know him from here and then, not well.

But with a name like Mayhem, well, Niselur's made it back from the grave once already.  Why not make it a double?

Atamara / Re: Post News Here for our Facebook Page
« on: April 05, 2013, 09:48:46 AM »
Well, you can always go exchange letters with Triple-K and see what it's like to be

at the start of every letter.

I've received "strongly worded letters" before iRL, but I can;t help but think I'd pay more attention if they started like that more often.

Your student loan is overdue...

Dwilight / Year 23 - Niselur
« on: April 05, 2013, 09:38:40 AM »
Well, this is only for Iashalur, or Niselur since the rename.

The tale end of the rebellion has more or less arrived, with the formal crowning of the King and his two Dukes.  Things are still somewhat hazy as to the monarchy as a whole, since King Leopold recently invited Sir Tugomir Bribir Lux to the country and set tongues wagging by immediately appointing him General of the Niselur forces.

Plague is in the process of taking four people:
  • Lady Farahnaz, who may be a unknown blood relation to the Mendicant family from the south.
  • Lady Amelia, Lord Allan and Sir North'n, who apparently are unrelated to the Mendicant family, but were likely participating in foul perversion of some sort.  Why else would the gods strike them down?

Winter has left, and for once there has been no starvation in any of the regions, despite several knights away crusading, defending the homelands, and the rebellion aftereffects.

Expansion is expected to proceed just as planned, although the low numbers of nobles in the land may present issues with land being properly stewarded.

Dwilight / Re: Mendicant Cheating
« on: April 01, 2013, 09:03:27 PM »
How do the families feel, 50 murders later? ^.^

How does a nation feel knowing that their government killed an innocent man?

Dwilight / Re: The Official Lurian/Asylon Movie Quote Thread
« on: April 01, 2013, 09:15:15 AM »
I'm not sure the good guys on Dwilight are... You might need to point them out for me, because I don't see any. All I see are a bunch of realms out to get theirs.

Well, we're all bright, shiny, good people in Iashalur!  Absolutely!  The previous nobility of Niselur?  Maybe not so much, especially near the end with the grabbing and the wailing and oh-put-that-down-were-you-raised-by-barbarians?  Maybe not so much with the starting nobility of Iashalur, with the omm-nom-nom-errk-overstuffed of region-grabby, the "I've got a dinner fork and a pot lid, let's crusade!" armies, and the council, oy-yow, the council!  What with the rebellion, Grumpy King Turin, Traitor King Leopold and that mad fool of a Banker who wants to make merchant-marauder babies with the Duchess of Gelene.

But we're all very good now, very nice and shiny.  Have you seen our Temple?  It's very shiny.  Like us!


Atamara / Re: Post News Here for our Facebook Page
« on: April 01, 2013, 08:51:35 AM »
After all, why fight a losing war when you can go loot some poor sap who's weaker than you?

On behalf of the Darkan High Council, we accept your statement of Empire loss and suggest a joint pillaging of Outer Tilog for a brisk game of Peasant Bowling.  If the devs work quick through the next five months, we could be sailing the intercontinental invasion fleet in time for a Rollsovar BBQ.

Mmmm.....BBQ of Eternal Damnation.... ;D

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