Messages

1

Feature Requests / Adjust the Zuma NPCS

« on: January 31, 2012, 08:38:35 PM »

I think we should find one or two more GMs to assist the current GM in playing the Zuma Daimons.

I think it will infinitely improve the flavor of the Zuma, and will stop any feelings of disillusionment that players are starting to experience over what they see as the "bullying" of the Zuma over player-realms.

Thanks.

(If you want to debate whether or not the Zuma are good/bad, please refer to the Dwilight thread currently in progress, this is chiefly to explore the idea of adding more GMs to the Zuma)

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Dwilight / Re: Zuma/Daimons

« on: January 31, 2012, 08:35:06 PM »

That's my position as well. I've played against Lukon, CE, Belu invasion--and guess what, it's fun to play against a challenging enemy. I've stood my ground, alone, against the entire army of Archaron, back in 2008 when they seemed like multis.

C'mon, people. It's BATTLEmaster.

All those realms, regardless of how powerful they are, are still human realms, that can make human mistakes . The Zuma GM controls ALL the DAimons. Would you enjoy playing against Lukon or blahblahblah if you KNEW for a fact it was just one guy controlling it?

Why don't we add two more GMs, whats so hard about that?

Why are the people on this thread arguing "CHANGE NOTHING, if they dont like it they can sit down and shut up!"

Seriously, no one, I repeat, NO ONE, who has been anti Zuma has been of the opinion to get rid of them entirely.

Also, contrary to what De-Legro insists, very few people are being critical of the Zuma GM, most if not all realize hes doing his best, however, the circumstances he must play in kinda lend themselves to a poor, uninteresting playstyle. Honestly if I was the GM I dont think I could do a much better job. On the other hand, if I was playing alongside two other GMs I think it would be exponentially more flavorful.

I actually quite enjoyed the Zuma before, they were mystical beings off in the corner who we had to be very careful not to disturb. Now they act like children and meet any perceived slight with massive armies. Someone brought up Everguard and the level 1000 guards. An interesting theory. I've never played everguard, but let me guess, if you attack the guard he beats you up, yes? what if you and your buddy are having a private conversation about the guard? does he come in and stomp you then too? What if someone gives the guard a forged message that says you called him a twat? does he come and kill you??

Honestly, the people defending the Zuma are employing logical fallacy over logical fallacy to prove their points. Many (most) of their arguments are circuitous and they often disprove their owne previous arguments with their newer arguments. If this was a verbal debate, you would all lose.

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Dwilight / Re: Zuma/Daimons

« on: January 31, 2012, 03:33:15 AM »

How many of you are starting to suspect De Legro is the Zuma GM.....

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Dwilight / Re: Zuma/Daimons

« on: January 30, 2012, 08:45:59 PM »

Yeah I did. I'm also a Deacon of my local church. Doesn't detract from the fact that the majority of evangelical movements love to pick and choose bible verses, and present them with little or no context

This is akin to saying that it's ok for me to say Jewish people are cheap, because, LOL, a majority of them are cheap.

It's using circular logic to reinforce stereotypes. You may not be a bigot, but by saying stuff like that you promote prejudices within our society. You haven't met the majority of evangelical movements so you don't have the authority to pass judgement on them. Isn't that what Jesus taught you Deacon?

Also, I can see there's no reason, for me at least, to continue this discussion. de legro has obviously made up his mind about Daemons and believes that anyone who doesn't like them is either wrong, misinformed, or not playing battle master right.

Arrtemesia defends the Daimons to his death because he's an addict for attention and, without a doubt in my mind, everyone would all too quickly forget about him if the Zuma were to disappear.

The Zuma GM I can sympathize with. He's trying his best and I think he's doing a good, if misdirected job. Honestly, I think you more than anyone should take a step back and say "I can be doing something better", you don't have to, but I think it's the right choice to make. Honestly, from me to you, I would try and get some other Zuma GMs to work with. Not to simply do your bidding mind you, but to have a genuine input on the actions of the Zuma. Don't tell me theres not enough dedicated players, hell, if BM has lots of something it's dedicated players. This would be a quick and easy way to make the Daimons feel more real, multi faceted, and "play withable".


Now they are just a wrench in the cog wheel of player on player interaction. They don't add anything, but they grind any action around them to a halt. I feel like I'm playing dungeons and dragons with s tyrannical game master whenever I interact with the Zuma....

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Dwilight / Re: Zuma/Daimons

« on: January 30, 2012, 04:07:19 AM »

You think Garrret doesn't pass on messages?

The Overloads tend to believe the Zuma worship them and them alone. I imagine that if any Zuma tribes were worshipping another religion they might get very very cross. Least that was how things stood about four months ago. But anyway why just assume that their are such worshippers? Priest have the tools to find out if anyone in the region is a member of a religion.

That message was meant for Garett, not the Daimons.

Part of the problem is Garett is an awful ambassador who often misinterprets the messages he sends to the Zuma.

The game states that many of the Zumalands inhabitants are Triunists. If the Daemons had a problem with this, they sure had pretty quiet way of showing it up until now. If I'm not mistaken, a large portion of Zuma inhabitants worship different religions, so what's wrong with having Vellos RP that Triunist Zuma approach Garett and inform him that Terran no longer wishes to speak to Garett. What part of that is a legitimate reason for the Zuma to go on warpath.

The thing you don't understand De-Legro, is that I'm not trying to convince you the Zuma are a bad idea. I'm telling you that *I* don't like it. Other people are also saying *they* dont like it. This isn't about you. This is about people expressing their feelings and whether or not you think those feelings are legitimate is irrelavant.

You can choose to not adress this apparently widespread discontent, but if the situation doesn't improve, I feel like the best thing for me to do would be to call it a day, give my character a nice end and thank BM for all the good memories.

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Dwilight / Re: Zuma/Daimons

« on: January 30, 2012, 03:58:33 AM »

What amazes me is that the viewpoints of the players who are forced to deal with the Zuma regularly by dint of proximity are so consistently ignored, dismissed, poo pooed, or outright attacked on these forums. The point of the Zuma, presumably, is to add something to the player experience and hopefully not solely to provide some GM with a toy to play with for his own amusement. Given that fact, I would think that player feedback would be taken seriously.

I recognize that the natural reaction to criticism, especially when said criticism is not always delivered in a constructive manner, is to become defensive. However, this tendency also leads those who are being criticized to dismiss *all* criticism as invalid, when that's not the case. Clearly the manner in which the Zuma are run is a source of increasing frustration to the players who are having to deal with them. I would think that a review of why this is the case might be in order, along with some honest consideration of how the experience could be improved for everyone involved. After all, what's more important, the plot or the players? It sounds to me like the Zuma are losing the players. When players start throwing up their hands and talk about deleting their characters out of frustration, something isn't working. This is the point where I, as a GM running an RPG for some friends expressing this level of frustration, would be engaging in some serious introspection and reconsidering my entire campaign.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I could not have better described my problem with the situation better than this.

As Glaumring has said, every realm around the Zuma are walking on eggshells. This is not only a not fun way to play, but it prevents further player interaction. Terran, for example, can't get involved in either the Lurian or Madinan conflict, even if it wanted to (which it may or may not). Wouldn't that be a funner interaction for the whole island rather than an incredibly powerful force exerting itself whenever it pleases. Here are some of the Zuma's demands of humans around it so far:

-do not insult us (this includes perceived insults and insults from secondhand sources)

-do not take a region surrounding our realm without our permission

-do not, under any circumstance, enter our lands without our permission.

All these infractions have been met with violent force from the Zuma. Huge, indefensible invasions of 10s of thousands of CS.

This paralyzes the game for all the players around the Zuma, and this is coming from a player who has no problem with BM's sometimes slow place. I have a friend I recently introduced to the game and this whole Zuma thing is not leaving him impressed.

Here's an interesting thing to consider as well, who are the chief people complaining about the tactics of the GM controlled Zuma? Players within geographic proximity of the Zuma who have been feeling frustrated for weeks. Who has been defending them? Players who have never had to deal with the Zuma and, of course, the Zuma's human ambassador.


De Legro, you want a suggestion?

How about the Daimons stop acting with hairpin trigger against any perceived slight against them. As has been said before, they act psychotically, and are more like sensitive children with powerful weapons rather than "higher beings" or whatever they're supposed to be....

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Dwilight / Re: Zuma/Daimons

« on: January 30, 2012, 01:50:08 AM »

How so? You just said yourself that SMA is about interacting with other players. How are we supposed to do that if all we're worried about is some unknowable Zuma, who aren't other players, constantly intervening with the realms of the players we are supposed to be interacting with?

I think this is a big part of the problem.

I get that the Zuma want to be dark, mysterious and unknowable, but the fact that OOC info is as scarce as IC info is an annoying and unnecessary addition to the Zuma's "flair".

Also, if there is only one GM controlling every Daemon, this is a serious design flaw.

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Dwilight / Re: Zuma/Daimons

« on: January 30, 2012, 01:46:16 AM »

If you are going to take a single section of text, and not apply to it the context of the surrounding text, well you have a promising career as a Evangelical Christian, or a Political Commentator on FOX.

Nice, but I've been civil so let's leave personal attacks out of this. (also, if I was an evangical Christian that'd be a really unnecessary attack against my religion....)

You miss the important aspect though. While you can't make everyone happy, the real problem is both sides will always insist that their experience is more relevant and valid.

I never claimed my experience was more relevant, simply that I was not having a positive experience, and that others were in the same boat as me.

Also, De Legro, I'm not here to attack the idea of Daemons on Dwi or the Zuma GM. It's just that the way they interact with the players is something that detracts from the funness of the game for me. I think I'm not alone in this. The interference from the Zuma is significantly changing the spirit of the game for me and now I feel like I'm not playing the PvP focussed game I want to be.

I'm just stating my thoughts, so I don't know why you're trying to change my mind by attacking my opinions.

If you're thinknig, "If you don't like it, quit, because it's fine for everyone else"

Well, maybe you're right, and perhaps I'll have better luck with a more PvP oriented game.

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Dwilight / Re: Zuma/Daimons

« on: January 30, 2012, 12:53:39 AM »

Don't roleplay? Please don't come onto the forums and just lie to people. Unless I miss it, as I do have a lot of messages to go through every day, I interact with everyone that tries to interact with me.

That also is another lie. Perhaps other players spread propaganda within the game that states that the Zuma demand complete obedience, but that has certainly never been the case.

Please be clear when you come onto these forums exactly where you get your facts from or make it clear when it is just speculation based on your personal assumptions.

My understanding of events:

A new player from Terran accidently roams into Zuma lands, does no damage than returns.

Haktoo makes a demand (via Garett) that the player go to Volcano Nightscree.

Hireshmont complies with Haktoo's request and sends the player off. In addition, Hireshmont tells Garett (via Zuma Triunists) that Hireshmont does not wish to correspond with him and that Garett should either (a) speak to Terran's ambassadors in Nightscree or (b) meet with Hireshmont face to face in Chesney ( the reason Hireshmont said this to Garett is because the feeling around Terran is that Garett can't be trusted)

Next, the Zuma invade Terran with 12,000 CS and attack two regions. So either:

A: Garett misunderstood the message and thought Hireshmont asked to meet with Daemons in Chesney. Which means the Zuma have an awful ambassador.

or

B: The Daemons are extremely sensitive and demand utmost respect and humility from the human underlings around them. Showing any contempt towards them results in indefensible military strikes.

Again, though. This isn't a criticism against the Zuma GM or the initial idea or anything. Im just letting everyone know that a lot of the players who are having interactions with the Daimons, including me, are not exactly having a good time about it. If you want to ignore those people and keep playing the Daemons in the same way, thats your call, but this whole "if you dont like it, quit" attitude isn't exactly healthy for player retention.

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Dwilight / Re: Zuma/Daimons

« on: January 30, 2012, 12:28:56 AM »

Or alternatively, you could read what SMA means in the context of BM, and accept that your expectations where unrealistic.

From the wiki on SMA:

"Non-European Realm/Religion Concepts
While these are acceptable on other islands, we are very, very sceptical about them on any island where we are looking for a serious medieval atmosphere. Some will be ok, a little bit of orient can spice things up, but the vast majority would only dilute and disturb the atmosphere. That goes especially for any asian or american concepts. Basically anything that the middle ages did not have much contact with. Again, there are other islands in BattleMaster where these ideas can be explored."

What this would imply to a new character who is seeking an SMA oriented island is that since orientalism and americanisms are discouraged, probably interplanetary demigods wont be present. In fact, a new player would probably assume such a thing fell under the nothing silly and unrealistic aspect of the SMA guidelines.

However, I'm not saying that we should get rid of Daemons because they are not SMA, all I'm saying is include a notice on the Dwilight intro that says "Strong presence of Daimons (powerful GM faction) on Dwilight".

I know that if I had seen that, I probably wouldn't have gone to Dwilight as I prefer the Player vs. player playstyle.

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Dwilight / Re: Zuma/Daimons

« on: January 29, 2012, 09:59:39 PM »

The Zuma are like hyper self-conscience middle girls who decide to throw the biggest fit of "Oh, no you didn't... Imma make your life horrible, bitch" if you so much as hint that you don't like the shirt they wore on Wednesday.

So true.

I am seriously considering getting rid of my character on Dwilight because of the Zuma. If I had wanted to fight against GM's I would have gotten a character on Beluaterra.

I am seriously thinking the same thing. It's just not fun playing against the Daimons. They're unpredictable in the worst way, massively overpowered and THEY DONT ROLEPLAY (or they roleplay themselves as solitary isolated beings, except from when suddenly they're not and they wordlessly invade neighbors. "LOL I DONT SAY ANYTHING BUT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHAT MAKES ME MAD" <- sounds like my last girlfriend). Also doesn't help that their mouthpiece is IC/OOC one of the most annoying players I've come across

Look, I get it. Its there to add flavor, some people love them (although the above poll would be more valid if we could see how many people who like the Zuma are actually near them on the island).

HOWEVER, Dwilight was supposed to be a large, colonial-style SERIOUS MEDIEVAL ATMOSPHERE island.

I signed up thinking I would have a chance to play on an island that respected historical correctness to some degree and could thereby simulate warfare and politics in a medieval style world. And yet, we have a group of mystical beings who are smack dab in the middle of Dwi who are invading neighbors with Demon Armies.... I feel like Im taking crazy pills!!!! Whats SMA about this???

On Beluaterra it makes sense. Its what people signed up for. Theres intrigue and a GM driven story and they players know what they're getting themselves into.

All Im saying is, since its too late to remove the Zuma, let people know what they're getting into. Add a footnote to the Dwilight Intro:

Attention: Dwilight is the home to an extremely powerful Daimon faction who imposes upon the sovereignty of it's neighbors, demands complete obedience and is vague and cumbersome in terms of diplomacy.

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Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: December 24, 2011, 04:29:16 AM »

You're assuming two things.  1. That anyone in Luria expects anyone outside of Luria to know what's going on in Luria, and 2. That most Lurians care at all about what is going on beyond Luria.  Neither assumption is accurate.  Koli and a few others are attempting to change both of those things, but that's for purely religious reasons.

You're kidding, right?  Do you think lords in the Christian Kingdoms knew anything about how the Muslim world was organized?  There were heads of state in the seventeenth century, much less earlier, who didn't know the first thing about non-Christian lands.

Luria is the single most isolated and isolationist place I've even seen in Battlemaster.  Getting Lurians to care about Fissoa is difficult.

Look, every morning my character wakes up, and, as a member of the social and political elite (as all of us are), his scribe presents to him pertinent information on a variety of issues. One of those pieces of information is a scroll which outlines the known diplomatic relations of all the continent's realms. By this information, and essentially this information alone, he is able to piece together that the realms of Luria Nova, PeL and Solaria are in an alliance. I don't know the details of this alliance but it's safe to assume it involves mutual defense and cooperation to some degree. Boom, my character understands the fundamental basics of the Lurian political situation. I don't know about the Halls of Luria just like the Lurians can't be expected to know that our alliance is called the Veinsormoot, but come on? You had NO idea of the alliance thats right smack in front of you?

The impression I get of the Lurian nobility is that they are willfully and purposefully ignorant.

"Herrr my scribes showed me a chart showing that Terran, D'hara and Barca are Federated. What does that mean, derrrrrrr"

(no offense, just trying to make a point. Seriously, do not be offended. Please.)

And its not SMA to be unaware of the political situation around you. Alliances around this time were a large part built around deterring attacks and most alliances were very public knowledge. Luria claiming it doesn't know about D'hara's alliance with Terran and Barca is like France not being aware of the Anglo-Portuguese alliance, it's absurd.

I'm not saying Luria should care at all about the alliance beside them, but it is unrealistic to say that they wouldn't at least be aware of it's existence.

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Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: December 24, 2011, 12:56:32 AM »

Our characters might remember that, if the Moot wasn't so keen on being secretive. My character only learnt the moot even exists a few weeks ago, and still has no idea what it does.

To be fair, there is very little interaction going on between the 'Moot and the Lurias on a player to player basis (as far as I know). I have noticed a lot of Lurian players that complain that the 'Moot is secretive, or, more accurately, that we do not advertise our purpose. I think this is a hypocritical position to take since the only reason players of the 'Moot have any semblance of a notion as to what the Lurian "alliance" (or whatever you would call it) is, comes from the fact that all those realms were friendly colonies of PeL. Thus, with a little intuition, a 'Moot player can look at the Lurian kingdoms (i.e. PeL, LN and Solaria), look at their diplomatic relations with each other and safely conclude that this is a bloc of cooperative nations. Our understanding of the Lurias does not extend any further than that.

What surprises me is when high ups in the Lurian Kingdoms cannot put two and two together and use their keen sense of deduction to realize that the realms of Barca, D'hara and Terran are federated and as such they are simply another power-bloc that is based on cultural and geographical similarities, much like the Lurias (and much like SA). They don't even have to know that the alliance is referred to as the Veinsormoot to understand the fundamental nature of the alliance.

I understand that the name Veinsormoot (which is gibberish if I understand correctly) can be confusing at first, however, there is a very clear and well organized wiki page describing the nature and mandate of the 'Moot. The Wiki is IC knowledge, much like a library, and to think that a Duke in the Lurias or even a Lord, would be so caught up in their own affairs that they would refuse to take the initiative and learn at least the mere basics of their neighbors, and potential rivals, is very, very un-SMA.

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Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: December 22, 2011, 10:28:55 PM »

It's because Terran is the responsible member of the Véinsørmoot.

D'Hara is doing a pretty good job also.

And Barca is like the annoying little brother that always seems to be pulling the other two into conflicts and messes.

From what I've observed, D'hara is doing much more on the unique items front than Terran is. Probably mostly because D'hara has more contacts abroad due to their trade situation.

But during Barca's founding Terran contributed way more of their military than D'hara did.

All in all though, I feel like the Veinsormoot is very balance in terms of who does what.

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Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: December 21, 2011, 08:58:42 PM »

I dont think its wise to put on the blinders and hope that Garrett is just spewing misinformation. When he speaks for the Zuma unofficially I zone him out, but this seemed quite official.

Take it from Terran, even if the Zuma pretty much KNOW you're innocent, they'll still go in and muck up a region or two. If they know you're guilty.........