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Messages - Chenier

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Development / Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« on: Yesterday at 06:42:19 PM »
Here's an idea for family wealth...

How about: remove the ability for players to send any gold to their families, and replace it completely with a greater passive growth. The passive growth could cap at 5k, and it could be based on the amount of traveling the nobles of the family are making (because it makes IC sense and because it's a good proxy for activity and desirable behavior).

BM General Discussion / Re: Best Unique Item Names!
« on: Yesterday at 06:34:15 PM »
"Steel Without Chafe!"

For the record 'of the Nudists' was added after a nudist portal roleplay in Perleone/Ibladesh, and also in memory of the Gymnistism religion.

Gymnitism is a name I hadn't heard in a while!

BM General Discussion / Re: Best Unique Item Names!
« on: February 17, 2018, 02:43:18 PM »
Maybe it's just super soft steel so that you can comfortably go in the nude under it? :P

Development / Re: HTTPS security standard
« on: February 17, 2018, 02:42:38 PM »
Yea, Firefox kept warning me about my insecure connection, and I'm on PC. I changed all my favorites for https://.

It was disconcerting, even though I presumed no threat was present.

Development / Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« on: February 16, 2018, 02:51:26 PM »
Realms started to survive more wars as the player base shrunk. People could no longer afford to set up colonies to replace existing realms. With the game stuck at 400 players, I doubt people want to destroy any realm but they probably still want to take at least a city or few regions.

Yes, I'll agree that realm survival increased with time.

The feasability in colonies is one factor, but there was also a culture shift, fed by a specific "anti-destruction" movement on the d-list and then forum and an increasing individualism and anti-coalition sentiment that encouraged realms to go on their own paths instead of following their bloc all the time.

Development / Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« on: February 16, 2018, 02:20:01 AM »
Are we even talking about the same game here? People rarely accept terms in this game. The winners usually want a city at least. Losers don't want to give up anything. Even when a sensible guy is on the throne and is willing to accept terms, players of that guy's realm sometimes overthrow the guy for accepting terms. Since you don't really lose much, people don't willingly give up. I think there should be a huge penalty for getting your realm destroyed like losing 90% of your honor and prestige you've earned in that realm upon your realm's destruction. Even after you run, this penalty should track you down. Maybe people will think twice about fighting to the end. Then again I doubt that will stop people since people quit once their realms get destroyed.

Hmm, an interesting idea, but that would lkikely cause increased defections when the boat is sinking, maybe even more realm deaths.

In my ten years of battlemaster, I can count on 1 hand the amount of wars that didn't end with the destruction of one realm or another.


Sint, Hetland, Riombara, and Kingdom of Alluran vs. Enweil did not result in any realm dying.
Republic of Fwuvoghor vs. Avalon did not result in any realm dying.
D'Hara vs. Pian en Luries did not result in any realm dying.
Pian en Luries vs. Fissoa did not result in any realm dying.
Caerwyn vs. D'Hara did not result in any realm dying.
Astrum vs. Westgard did not result in any realm dying.
Swordfell vs. Astrum did not result in any realm dying.

And I can think of a bunch of other wars where I'm just not sure enough of the specifics anymore.

Wars don't frequently end in the destruction of a realm, but when they do, it's almost always the loser's fault.

Dwilight vs. Thulsoma, they were just really happy to trigger the religious folk with their blasphemy and everyone in general with their blatant exploits
Half of Dwilight vs. Aurvandil, for being such an obnoxious bunch of blatant multicheaters
SA vs. NA (Caligus), almost went for the kill, did not yet, but had we done it... well Caligus completely refused to negotiate, even if down to 1 city

Plus all the ill-fated colonies that were just never meant to be.

Development / Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« on: February 15, 2018, 01:56:11 AM »
That's anecdotal at best. I highly doubt that the ratio is any more than 60/40 one way or the other. Usually it's ridiculous terms from both sides and an inability to settle for anything more than complete and total victory. See the Sirion war against Oligarch, where until Greater Xavax nobles joined there was literally no way that Sirion would have the forces to break Oligarch. Yet they refused to settle for anything but the destruction of Oligarch.

The players of this game on both sides of any war generally have little sense of what is a sensible negotiation.

Anecdotal? I'd place it between 80% and 95% of realm deaths due the losing realms digging their own graves, at least 75% due to the dying realms refusing reasonable offers being made to them, the rest dying because they did their best to make their enemies utterly despise them.

People are proud. They'd rather keep their OOC pride than keep some virtual holdings. A lot of things RL people would be delighted to accept as surrender conditions would just never be considered by BM players for this very reason.

Development / Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« on: February 15, 2018, 01:00:58 AM »
I think those ideas would give people a way bigger incentive to actually use their family gold and actually lose it for maybe no gain. Right now we've got so many people with almost maxed out or actually maxed out gold, which yes would give those people an advantage, but only until they've spent enough that they're equal with everybody else. It would force another bit of strategy to the game.

I don't think you get my beef with family gold and its usage for war purposes.

If player A has a city duke in realm A and another in realm B, and realm A is at war so he constantly pulls out family gold to help it, and his noble in realm B keeps funneling gold out to him to help him, then
1) The enemies of realm A can do absolutely nothing about what's going on in realm B (on another continent)
2) Realm B is deprived of a huge % of its wealth, and thus is greatly disincentivized from taking any risks, both passively by maintaining low war preparation indicators (mobile CS, RCs, other infrastructure, etc.), and actively by making the one of the most powerful nobles of that realm not WANT war because that player NEEDS that gold for his other character in another realm.

Allowing players to use family gold in wars increases anti-war inertia in the sponsoring realms. And it's really unfair to the players of the sponsoring realms because most of them probably have no clue about their peers funneling gold away from the realm.

If players had no way to stash their gold, then they'd end up having to spend it locally, or amass it locally. If they amass it locally, eventually when a crisis sparks up they might go "well, I've got 50 000 gold on hand if we really want to teach them a lesson", and if they just end up autopausing, that wealth goes back to the realm.

Though we probably don't really want players amassing 50k or more either, though, because that can also be kinda cheesy.

Development / Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« on: February 14, 2018, 10:01:40 PM »
You are talking about the same inertia that drives people to fight until they demolish a realm.

I don't think that's fair at all. First of all, that inertia at least gives people something to do. Second of all, the inertia that leads to realm destruction is usually based on the losers refusing to accept defeat, preferring death to surrender. You can't ban people from being suicidal...

As for Bronnen's suggestions, I'm firmly opposed to allowing characters in one continent from sponsoring characters on another, which is what all these family gold mechanics are.

Helpline / Re: Buying region, region was poached?
« on: February 14, 2018, 09:57:44 PM »
If marshals could set line settings for the whole army (or if line settings was solely left up to marshals), then this kind of thing would become less common, imo, as the simplicity of making sure everyone's doing the right thing would start to outweigh the gain of the advantage of meat shield units.

Development / Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« on: February 14, 2018, 03:00:52 AM »
Oh yea, investments. That's a third way where family wealth can directly help in a war effort, along with calling in family aid and buying regions.

The possibility to tax/raid/interact with family homes more would be interesting, but would need proper thought.

I'm not sure we really want to force people to end ongoing wars through fatigue mechanics. Ideally, yea, more shorter wars sound fun, but inertia is so huge in this game, and it's so hard to get a war going... that you really don't want to end it sooner than it has to, because making the war shorter won't necessarily make the inter-war peace any shorter.

East Island / Re: Redhaven
« on: February 14, 2018, 02:23:31 AM »
Aye, a number of folks stated something along the same lines. Simple fact is, we became what we had to be to survive.

Again, can't speak for the other individuals', but my "personality cult" comment was an observation of what it became as a result of those circumstances. The only reason no one calls OI/other plausibly stagnant-insular realms a personality cult is because no one [outside those realms] gives a damn.

 I was absent for a long while so I can't speak about what went on internally during my absence, only what led to it, and what came after.

I don't know OI specifically, but being stagnant is not the same thing as having a personality cult. I've been in a number of stagnant realms, and very few of them had anything close to personality cult, but GX totally did.

Development / Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« on: February 13, 2018, 09:29:40 PM »
Yeah; something different needs to be done, and perhaps some of my other ideas about changes in region ownership should play into them—with the basic idea be that you essentially half-take-over the city and some surrounding regions, then declare them en masse to be a new colony.

Yeah, something along those lines—optional, like Vita says, and working with the new system, not trying to replace it.

I'd still rather not just make the excess gold decay away.

Frankly, it sounds to me like what you really want isn't so much the removal of family gold, but the removal of the "buy region" option, and that's something I am open to, though I'd like something to replace it with—not necessarily another way to take a region, but something that's sneaky and highly disruptive.

No, I definitely don't want to start undermining referenda. But yes, I tend to agree with your general feeling.

However, I would also say this: If the one-player gimmick required a lot of time and effort to set up, its payoff should be proportional to that. So if there were an infiltrator option that required several days or even a week or two of RL time for setup, but that allowed you to, say, wound all or most of the troops in a region (simulating poisoning a water supply or something similar), that is something that I would consider as probably viable.

There are a few different things going on here, and yes, I think all of them need some kind of overhaul.

One thing that would help a lot is to increase the game's memory further—not as in RAM, but its ability to remember what happened when. Then we wouldn't be working with simple numbers like loyalty and morale all on their own quite so much.

So I have the first outline of a way to strongly encourage, without mandating, dense realms. The basic gist is this: A fully-controlled (non-city; cities should be handled at least slightly differently) region is one that has at least a Lord and one knight. If the capital has even one non-fully-controlled region (of those belonging to the realm) adjacent to it, all non-capital regions suffer a certain amount of penalty. If the capital is fully surrounded, then check if all those regions have fully-controlled regions around them. If not, then all regions beyond that first ring suffer similar penalties, and so on.

Essentially, it puts strong pressure on a realm to concentrate its Lords and knights in the regions around the capital.

However, as I said, in addition to adding this higher control state, I would also like to add a lower control state, like demesne or crown lands, or possibly call it hinterlands, that more or less consists of regions that your realm claims, and can extract a small amount of benefit from, but doesn't really own in any very meaningful sense. As soon as someone else comes in and stakes a claim with a military presence, the region becomes part of their demesne.

So if you can only really hold regions with a Lord and a knight, and those have to be concentrated around the capital or you risk unrest and red tape, but you can extend your realm's influence with very little limit, that makes warfare a much more dynamic experience, not measured in weeks spent taking over each border region as you tediously push through your enemy's outer regions, but in days marching across them, planting your flag and briefly intimidating the peasants, and moving on toward the lands they are actually willing and able to hold onto in the face of an army...

I think that makes it much more about the knights and the fun.


Had another idea about family gold (or remembered an idea I had some time ago): Right now, once gold goes to the family, it is essentially removed from the game until it is spent.

What if it existed just the way gold getting ready for taxes did?

It shouldn't be anywhere near as easy to steal, but families need to have a home (and if they don't have one, we can force them to pick one, or just pick one for them, if they're dragging their feet about it), so shouldn't their gold be there?

Perhaps we should even let families have estates, that exist as regular estates within a region, help with efficiency, and generate gold (at a vastly reduced rate, due to expenses) for the family, but don't confer the same benefits that having a knight there does (like my fully-controlled regions above). Then the family gold is divided between all the various family estates, and if you happen across one when you're looting, you have the opportunity to try to rob its vault.

4) I really dislike both the "buy region" option and the amassing of family wealth. I never liked the amassing of family wealth, because it encourages people to have secondary characters who have no other purpose than to farm gold. These characters are parasites that decreases the realm's ability (and will) to take risks and go to war. As for "other things to do with family gold", I know there was calling family aid, that I just remembered. I think that was nerfed since Thulsoma abused the hell out of it, but I think it still allows for one character to fund another on another continent. Continents should work independantly, I don't like the idea of some people on some continents helping other people on other continents. All continents need war, and all realms need their tax gold for it.

6) I think that would be way overpowered. Balancing great gains with great risks only goes a certain way, it still comes down to "risking/wasting 1 noble to potentially destroy a realm". Because if you can wound a whole foreign army without even fighting them, and you prepared for it, in many cases you can outright kill them, or just about. And I don't think a few weeks of RL time to setup is all that much either, compared to typical refit times.

One player gimmicks, in my opinion, should target one other player. Like assassination attempts. A key strike can have a huge impact, but it's still only just affecting one player, and largely works around how much power people are concentrating. I'm fine with the existence of specialists who can do things that maybe the masses can't do, but I also think that their impacts should be, overall, small compared to the masses of troop leaders.

12/13) I think the details for any system addressing this will probably be tricky to sort out.  There's also the issue of balancing them around changing demographics. Some features that didn't make sense back in the days could work now, and vice versa, just because of how many (active) players we have now vs then.

I'm not sure how I think about very quick TOs. Seems like to could be rather demoralizing to players if everything they have can be taken in a week.

Then again, if regions were less binary in control, maybe it wouldn't be a big deal. For example, taking over a region takes only 3 days instead of about 7, but when the TO is "finished", you only have 30% control, which means you only get 30% of the taxes you otherwise would. If you really want to, you can continue "takeover options" to bring it to 100%, or you can move on to the next region. Regions could directly work from control: takeovers first deplete the current control pool, and then begin to fill your own, but having low control doesn't mean it will revolt and that all your work will be wasted, just means that the region won't give much until control is increased.

Development / Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« on: February 13, 2018, 07:51:56 PM »
Also in line with this topic:,8082.0.html

Removing some of the intent-based rules to let people just lug it out without regards to how good they are at weaseling legalese into being granted the right to do something others would not.

Additionally, a return on the realm radius issue: with a declining player base, it's much easier to maintain a large per-realm noble count with sprawling empires, which limits the number of council positions and thus increases competition, than with a large number of tiny realms that don't have much leadership potential and where many completely delegate many responsibilties to foreign parties. Large does not always equate stagnant and hollow.

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