1
BM General Discussion / Re: I'm not leaving.
« on: August 01, 2014, 02:15:59 PM »
I tried to quit, but I just could't make it stick. I should try the patch or some gum or something. I hear the vaporized form helps some people quit.
Show Posts
This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
2
BM General Discussion / Re: Getting Started Again
« on: July 24, 2014, 02:01:46 PM »No. That's a newbie protection, and I'm pretty sure I remember when it first came in. To be honest, I don't know if it's as much necessary today, since I, at least, haven't seen the kinds of abuses that were common back before 2007-ish, with realms routinely forcing new players (sometimes new characters, but I can recall instances of realms with these policies giving a pass to characters of players they already knew were good) to do scut work for weeks or months—region maintenance detail, chasing down monster and undead groups, etc.
I remember that as well.
To be fair that was, I feel, largely a product of the battle group system with intensely specialized armies. It often wasn't clear what group a new player or character would best fit into, so home guard armies were kind of a holding tank until they got placed. Not saying it was a good policy for keeping new people engaged necessarily, just I don't think it was so much about them being new and more about battle groups being a different play style than what we have now.
3
South Island / Re: The war has begun! Lets celebrate with a nice tall glass of bloodlust
« on: July 23, 2014, 06:27:20 AM »Toren is arguably indefensible for both Taselak and Sandalak due to their natural rallies being in Falens/CoG. If it came with high level walls it would be a different matter, but it won't with both sides fighting under it.
Heretic! There are no positions which the Griffin and Wyvern cannot hold against the heathens and invaders of Ikalak and Taselak!
4
BM General Discussion / Re: Spying (was: Re: An Open Letter to the BM Community)
« on: July 22, 2014, 05:00:15 AM »Having run several spy networks over my time I have a few issues with them, the major one being that no matter the intention of the spy master, you invariably end up with players using multi accounts in relation to spying.
Indeed, this does begin to be a problem, especially with planted spies. Making someone go turncoat, in my experience, poses way lower risks of knock-on multi-cheating, but I've also noticed that planted spies seem to morph into multi-cheaters pretty quick.
5
BM General Discussion / Re: Spying (was: Re: An Open Letter to the BM Community)
« on: July 18, 2014, 02:01:09 AM »That's also a great point. With traditional intelligence, it's unthinkable to sail your army far away to land right next to the enemy capital unless you vastly overpower your enemy anyways. With spying, you know where to land without a loss and when to do so to prevent the enemy from being able to retaliate, offering the deadly possibility of landing safely and rushing to the enemy capital before they can react. You can often then even start a takeover of their capital...
I'd grant that spying is more lucrative in the current naval game. The enormous variety of potential destinations and the huge power asymmetry that manifests upon landing versus an amphibious assault lend themselves towards empowering espionage. Naval landings seem only likely to succeed against essentially undefended shorelines, which means they have to be surprise attacks.
So countries with disproportionately maritime borders (D'Hara) may be uniquely susceptible to espionage, and may also stand to benefit more from it.
6
South Island / Re: Kudos thread
« on: July 18, 2014, 01:07:09 AM »
That was me. I asked the realm for donations to build it so we could throw a tournament and the winner would have become lord of Ikalak city.
lol.
You would.
7
South Island / Re: Drinking beer, listening to Alice in Chains, feeling calm.... Sandalak
« on: July 11, 2014, 03:22:32 AM »We built a LOT of recruitment centers. We enlarged them. We kept all but the worst ones. We drafted a lot of troops. We win battles.
Seriously, it's so easy guys!
8
South Island / Re: Kudos thread
« on: July 11, 2014, 03:20:30 AM »
Seriously, kudos to all the military hierarchy in all the realm. You newer folks don't remember what all of BM used to be like, with big armies moving under the orders of pretty well-structured military elites with really sophisticated strategies. I haven't gotten to feel this much part of just a good 'ole fashion war in a long time, and my character isn't even a significant part of the military hierarchy.
9
BM General Discussion / Re: Spying (was: Re: An Open Letter to the BM Community)
« on: July 10, 2014, 04:07:51 AM »
As a chronic spy and spy-recruiter, a few notes on my experience of the business in BM (current as of, say, 8 months ago---- maybe everything has changed since then). These could be generally true, or it may be that I manage to recruit a "type."
1. Most spies who are effective at spying aren't silent people blending into the background. They're usually active characters who invest a lot in the realm.
2. Most spies don't see themselves as spies, even OOCly. Many people who pass on information from their realms believe ICly, and as best I can tell OOCly, that they are helping their realm or team.
3. I've rarely ever used spies (with a notable exception I will address below) that were "planted." I usually find spies with histories in realms.
4. I don't think there's a strong tie between boringness and spies. I think there is definitely some--- active players in boring realms want an outlet. So there's a clear mechanism. However, really exciting realms also create internal politics that motivate espionage (see: Luria). These motives and actions create numerous opportunities to recruit sources. So I don't there's a catch-all way to prevent people in your realm from spying: making it more active or more quiet may change WHO becomes a spy, but it won't change that you have SOME spying.
5. Spying, in my experience (and I'll grant my beat on the espionage market is less on the orders-relaying side and more on the intrigue side, though I've done more than a fair share of both), is not that effective at creating a strategic advantage. Waiting for your enemy to give orders so you can give orders often creates issues even the most tactically incompetent person should be able to see, and knowing the enemy's orders on a turn-by-turn basis usually doesn't change your actions. In my experience, the most "useful" spying was 1) Nurturing turncoats and thereby sapping the enemy's political will to fight and 2) Weekly strategies, i.e. "Our next campaign will focus on this objective," etc.
Others are free to comment from their own experiences, but those have been my observations from what I think is one of the longer BM espionage careers. If my personal experiences are generally applicable, then I'm hesitant to endorse the "spying is bad for teams" thesis. Spying seems usually to reflect discontent within a team about how that team is being managed, and gives team members an outlet to depose current team leaders. That's not a bad thing.
But it seems to me the concern with spying revolves around trust. Spying can damage the environment of trust that makes it possible to play BM "as with friends." And I think that's a fair complaint. As I mentioned above, I have used planted agents on one particularly spectacular occasion some of the older folks probably remember, and which I flatter myself to say I see as a sort of epochal marker for the rise of the current espionage culture in BM.
For the younger folks, I'm referring to the last days of Oligarch when Oligarch's intelligence service (the "Worst Case Committee") actively used Oligarch's status as a refugee point for the many realms wiped out by Sirion, Old Rancagua, and Fontan to develop a wide-ranging network of spies. Simultaneous with a military-focused spy ring relaying orders, we cultivated a group of deeply embittered refugees from the destroyed city-state of Avamar who were desperate for a new home and willing to do anything to procure such a homeland. So I orchestrated a fake rebellion in Oligarch to kill two birds with one stone: give a bunch of my agents a kick-butt back-story to sneak into an enemy realm, and roust out some enemy agents (I forget if Sirion or Fontan were spying on us).
Once my agents lost their rebellion (made sure of that), they went to Old Rancagua and were accepted as fellow-travelers against Oligarch. I made sure one of them got captured by Oligarch a week or two later, and we executed him, just to prove to Old Rancagua these were real enemies of Oligarch.
A few weeks later, Oligarch's army (and specifically a division composed of refugees from various realms, mostly Avamar and Rancagua) launched a campaign to draw away Old Rancague's army. They did so, and my rebels moved to the capital, and rebelled. They won the rebellion, and immediately started wreaking havoc. The old economy system gave more power to the council to mess things up, and they did their best. Then there was a counter-rebellion by Old Rancagua loyalists, and they narrowly retook the throne. Meanwhile, an Oligarch-sponsored CTO just narrowly failed on OR's second city.
This was called Operation Rubber Ducky. It created a very large amount of bitterness from several fronts: players with characters identifying as Avamarian had a super-strong OOC identification with their realm identity, and were pissed at Oligarch's leaders (myself among them) for using them and then failing to deliver the win. Old Rancaguans felt we had cheated in some way. Many people in Oligarch who didn't know the full details in advance were mad because they also felt it violated the game's spirit, and felt Oligarch's reputation was tarnished. Needless to say, when Old Rancagua did eventually recover, they ended up being the most vindictive of Oligarch's three major enemies.
I provide this backstory because I learned a lot from Rubber Ducky. First, think twice before knocking over the other kid's sand-castle. Several good players left over Rubber Ducky. I'm not sure the game won. Second, if you're going to knock over the other kid's sand-castle, have a toy ready to give him. Rubber Ducky was pretty clearly aimed at turning the Old Rancaguans into refugees with absolutely no sense that we might try and make any type of fusion or anything like that. I don't think that was good. Third, even if you have a toy ready, try not to needlessly insult the other side, like by telling them they just got had by Operation Rubber Ducky. Fourth, using "planted" agents raises serious objections among many players and strikes a lot of people as, if not outright cheating, certainly not playing with friends.
I've tried to keep those lessons in mind since then. My point with all that was just to say I think rather than talking about "spying" being bad, we should accept that many players do find that espionage is a positive component of their gameplay experience, and try to work out social norms about what the best way to incorporate that gameplay desire actually is.
1. Most spies who are effective at spying aren't silent people blending into the background. They're usually active characters who invest a lot in the realm.
2. Most spies don't see themselves as spies, even OOCly. Many people who pass on information from their realms believe ICly, and as best I can tell OOCly, that they are helping their realm or team.
3. I've rarely ever used spies (with a notable exception I will address below) that were "planted." I usually find spies with histories in realms.
4. I don't think there's a strong tie between boringness and spies. I think there is definitely some--- active players in boring realms want an outlet. So there's a clear mechanism. However, really exciting realms also create internal politics that motivate espionage (see: Luria). These motives and actions create numerous opportunities to recruit sources. So I don't there's a catch-all way to prevent people in your realm from spying: making it more active or more quiet may change WHO becomes a spy, but it won't change that you have SOME spying.
5. Spying, in my experience (and I'll grant my beat on the espionage market is less on the orders-relaying side and more on the intrigue side, though I've done more than a fair share of both), is not that effective at creating a strategic advantage. Waiting for your enemy to give orders so you can give orders often creates issues even the most tactically incompetent person should be able to see, and knowing the enemy's orders on a turn-by-turn basis usually doesn't change your actions. In my experience, the most "useful" spying was 1) Nurturing turncoats and thereby sapping the enemy's political will to fight and 2) Weekly strategies, i.e. "Our next campaign will focus on this objective," etc.
Others are free to comment from their own experiences, but those have been my observations from what I think is one of the longer BM espionage careers. If my personal experiences are generally applicable, then I'm hesitant to endorse the "spying is bad for teams" thesis. Spying seems usually to reflect discontent within a team about how that team is being managed, and gives team members an outlet to depose current team leaders. That's not a bad thing.
But it seems to me the concern with spying revolves around trust. Spying can damage the environment of trust that makes it possible to play BM "as with friends." And I think that's a fair complaint. As I mentioned above, I have used planted agents on one particularly spectacular occasion some of the older folks probably remember, and which I flatter myself to say I see as a sort of epochal marker for the rise of the current espionage culture in BM.
For the younger folks, I'm referring to the last days of Oligarch when Oligarch's intelligence service (the "Worst Case Committee") actively used Oligarch's status as a refugee point for the many realms wiped out by Sirion, Old Rancagua, and Fontan to develop a wide-ranging network of spies. Simultaneous with a military-focused spy ring relaying orders, we cultivated a group of deeply embittered refugees from the destroyed city-state of Avamar who were desperate for a new home and willing to do anything to procure such a homeland. So I orchestrated a fake rebellion in Oligarch to kill two birds with one stone: give a bunch of my agents a kick-butt back-story to sneak into an enemy realm, and roust out some enemy agents (I forget if Sirion or Fontan were spying on us).
Once my agents lost their rebellion (made sure of that), they went to Old Rancagua and were accepted as fellow-travelers against Oligarch. I made sure one of them got captured by Oligarch a week or two later, and we executed him, just to prove to Old Rancagua these were real enemies of Oligarch.
A few weeks later, Oligarch's army (and specifically a division composed of refugees from various realms, mostly Avamar and Rancagua) launched a campaign to draw away Old Rancague's army. They did so, and my rebels moved to the capital, and rebelled. They won the rebellion, and immediately started wreaking havoc. The old economy system gave more power to the council to mess things up, and they did their best. Then there was a counter-rebellion by Old Rancagua loyalists, and they narrowly retook the throne. Meanwhile, an Oligarch-sponsored CTO just narrowly failed on OR's second city.
This was called Operation Rubber Ducky. It created a very large amount of bitterness from several fronts: players with characters identifying as Avamarian had a super-strong OOC identification with their realm identity, and were pissed at Oligarch's leaders (myself among them) for using them and then failing to deliver the win. Old Rancaguans felt we had cheated in some way. Many people in Oligarch who didn't know the full details in advance were mad because they also felt it violated the game's spirit, and felt Oligarch's reputation was tarnished. Needless to say, when Old Rancagua did eventually recover, they ended up being the most vindictive of Oligarch's three major enemies.
I provide this backstory because I learned a lot from Rubber Ducky. First, think twice before knocking over the other kid's sand-castle. Several good players left over Rubber Ducky. I'm not sure the game won. Second, if you're going to knock over the other kid's sand-castle, have a toy ready to give him. Rubber Ducky was pretty clearly aimed at turning the Old Rancaguans into refugees with absolutely no sense that we might try and make any type of fusion or anything like that. I don't think that was good. Third, even if you have a toy ready, try not to needlessly insult the other side, like by telling them they just got had by Operation Rubber Ducky. Fourth, using "planted" agents raises serious objections among many players and strikes a lot of people as, if not outright cheating, certainly not playing with friends.
I've tried to keep those lessons in mind since then. My point with all that was just to say I think rather than talking about "spying" being bad, we should accept that many players do find that espionage is a positive component of their gameplay experience, and try to work out social norms about what the best way to incorporate that gameplay desire actually is.
10
BM General Discussion / Re: GREAT MOMENTS... IN BATTLEMASTER HISTORY
« on: July 02, 2014, 05:20:04 AM »I remember those days on BT. That was when I had my first ruler character, right next to you guys in Irombrozia. That was a blast.
You were in that deeply frustrating little Luz de Bia secession in Eno weren't you? Gosh I would get so pissed at y'all. I kept trying to find new combinations of political alignments that might just coax one of the various secessions in the area to come around and align against Rio. Bah. Rio is a festering plague that just won't go away.
11
BM General Discussion / Re: GREAT MOMENTS... IN BATTLEMASTER HISTORY
« on: July 02, 2014, 03:33:13 AM »
Rubber Ducky. And the EC newspaper wars. Honestly the whole last days of Oligarch I still see in a kind of halcyon.
I also had a real blast in Irombrozia. Irombrozia's many dying generals, frequent alliance changes, and to me, surprisingly long survival. And of course the chance to troll Anaris is always worth it.
I also had a real blast in Irombrozia. Irombrozia's many dying generals, frequent alliance changes, and to me, surprisingly long survival. And of course the chance to troll Anaris is always worth it.
12
South Island / Re: Drinking beer, listening to Alice in Chains, feeling calm.... Sandalak
« on: June 28, 2014, 07:07:29 AM »No. You cannot immigrate to, emigrate from, or be deported from or to the war island. It is completely disconnected from the rest of the world. Even family gold is disconnected. Characters on the war island cannot send gold to their families, get gold from their families, or perform region investments. (I would assume that Anaris also disconnected the other family gold avenues as well, including bounties, ransoms, buying regions, using family influence, etc.)
Sadface. I used the old war islands to buff H/P before sending my characters out on political careers.
13
South Island / Re: So what are you doing in War Islands?
« on: June 27, 2014, 02:00:14 PM »
This is why we have the filter for orders people.
I do not read anything other than orders and personal messages.
It's the war islands people. You don't need social interaction. Just a great torrent of death rained down upon the heathens of Ikalak and Taselak.
I do not read anything other than orders and personal messages.
It's the war islands people. You don't need social interaction. Just a great torrent of death rained down upon the heathens of Ikalak and Taselak.
14
South Island / Re: Drinking beer, listening to Alice in Chains, feeling calm.... Sandalak
« on: June 27, 2014, 01:56:46 PM »
Totally unrelated question:
can you emigrate from the war island?
can you emigrate from the war island?
15
BM General Discussion / Re: An Open Letter to the BM Community
« on: June 26, 2014, 02:05:48 PM »Well I deleted my character when I felt I was too attached cause I felt I was starting to take things too personally.
Gotta say starting fresh does help a lot with that. Just delete/pause and move on to a new younger character on a different realm full of people you haven't played before.
This.
We really need more people willing to take a break instead of deleting.