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Messages - Velax

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16
Beluaterra / Re: The War of Thalmarkin... Supremacy?
« on: September 01, 2014, 03:55:00 AM »
Moderator note: This thread isn't going anywhere that could be vaguely construed as "good". Locking it. I suggest having a long think before starting another one on this war.

17
BM General Discussion / Re: I need a list of other browser rpg games
« on: August 27, 2014, 11:47:51 AM »
This isn't a recent post by him. It's just a massive necro.

18
BM General Discussion / Re: I'm leaving.
« on: July 29, 2014, 11:57:15 AM »
Moderator note: I've cleared out all the snark and off-topic posts. Keep it on topic and at least vaguely nice, please.

19
Far East Island / Re: Post FEI News Here for our Facebook Page
« on: July 27, 2014, 02:55:41 PM »
The Order of the Elders has been destroyed in the Far East. Growing desperate after unwisely declaring a crusade on the Empire and having it quickly turn against them, the religion began engaging in human sacrifice and it is widely believed the starvation that affected the north and the glacier that quickly followed in the south was a result of the Order's incompetent meddling in dark forces.

As the Order's elders and priests were driven from the Far East by the Empire, its temples fell into ruins and its followers abandoned the religion in droves. Now nothing is left of the Order in the Far East save rubble and memories.

20
Far East Island / Re: Tournament snub?
« on: July 24, 2014, 01:31:42 AM »
Yeah, Winter travel times were the killer. Anyone south of Ahael wouldn't have been able to make it even if they left as soon as the tournament was announced. Spring might be a better time for a tournament, I think.

21
Helpline / Re: City's max population seems very low?
« on: July 21, 2014, 12:52:31 AM »
Cities on FEI also have a lower population than cities on most other islands.

22
Far East Island / Re: North Vs. South
« on: July 11, 2014, 06:26:33 AM »
We're too far apart here to find grounds for agreement. You're still talking about realms, I'm talking about players. What matters is that there's a significant number of players who don't like the direction the island is being taken in by the Empire project. You either believe that or you don't. But really you're just shooting the messenger that's highlighting this. Like I said, I could have stayed silent and let it take its course. And probably will in the future. You see players complaining about realms being destroyed, when they're really complaining about a model of play being introduced to the island that they don't like the look of. The terms are unreasonable because they'll leave no place on the island where these players can go if they don't want to play within the Empire.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter that much because people can just move their characters somewhere else. But it will negatively impact your player numbers on the island. Believe it. Don't believe it. Act on it. Don't act on it. Your choice.

You keep going on, and on, and on and on and on about the Empire model and the Empire project, while ignoring the repeatedly made statement that you don't even know what it is. For the vast majority of players, the "Empire model" is just a normal federation with a strong central leader. The only people it makes a difference to is the rulers, who have to put up with a large realm occasionally dictating the course of a war. Hey, much like it is now. It's fine for characters to bitch about surrendering sovereignty, etc, etc, but if there are players going on about how they hate the Empire and how they'll leave the island because it makes such a massive difference to the way they play, then they're talking out of their arses. If you picked any random player in the Empire, chances are the fact they're in the Empire has no effect whatsoever on their gameplay, save perhaps some RP, because the Empire makes a specific point of not interfering in internal realm politics.

23
Far East Island / Re: North Vs. South
« on: July 11, 2014, 01:37:43 AM »
Concerning the surrender terms and Kindaran/southern refusal of them, I forgot to mention that pre-glacier part of the point of rejecting them was also to ensure that the war was prolonged to make sure everyone on the island had an active war to take part in that was pretty well balanced between the two opposing sides. Post-glacier is, of course, a completely different kettle of fish.
 
And this....

Yes, we genuinely come at this from totally different angles. I know this is why Velax will never see where I'm coming from with it. Again, my thinking on this is deeply coloured by discussions and happenings over in Might & Fealty. We've come to realize that pushing defeated realms too far was making people quit the game. In a couple of recent cases, wars have ended with pretty much no surrender terms imposed because the losing side has said, "What the hell are you doing to us?" causing the winners to back off. One winning realm recently made reparations to the losing side for an unjust war. And Hawks has just returned all the territory it won from Red Forest in a war about two months ago (I realise the realm names will mean nothing to people here).

Partly, this is motivated by a deep wish among the M&F community to stop players leaving, maintain levels of happiness and enjoyment amongst all players (not just the ones on your side), and attract new ones to make the game a success. It doesn't take much imagination to see echoes for that here, on an island with a dwindling number of players in a game with a dwindling number of players. To lift a quote from the M&F character page, "Don't play to win or you'll soon have no-one to war with".

I fully accept that this sort of "no win, no loss" scenario is completely alien to BM players, and I recently said over in M&F that the import of BM war culture is what was damaging the M&F outlook on war. In this case, I wish some of M&F would rub off on BM. But I seriously doubt that it will.

So you accept that your attitude here is alien to BM, but still felt you had the right to attack the opposing side for their "unreasonable" terms?

Let me put it bluntly. If you think you can start a war - a war that very quickly became a war to destroy my realm - lose it and then have us give you our own lands, lands that were not Kindara's at the beginning of the war, as well as impose restrictions on the winners about when and who future wars can be against, then yes. That will not ever, ever rub off on BM. I would not bother to play a game like that, where making repeated poor decisions has no effect whatsoever and there are no consequences for your actions. That sounds boring and unrealistic and is not what BM is about.

24
Far East Island / Re: People ask: Are the terms !@#$ty enough?
« on: July 11, 2014, 01:30:19 AM »
If you're going to come to the forums and toss around wild accusations, Bofeng, at least do us the courtesy of not misrepresenting the truth, leaving out inconvenient facts or just blatantly lying.

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Well, puppet Stephanie never properly communicated the terms with the council, and Zonasa stole two regions from Cathay from the first day of the new leadership. No one gave us any chance but they still blame us as warmongers.

Your ruler surrendered with terms she obviously felt she could agree to. Immediately two of your lords defected or seceded (co-incidentally the two who would be required to give up territory under the treaty - I'm sure greed and selfishness played no role in their actions at all) and the rest of you rebelled with the stated purpose of repudiating the terms made. The ruler you rebelled against defected with her territory and without a word you then declared war on Zonasa. And you're apparently shocked that the Empire responded to defend her? I didn't notice you declaring war on Kindara or Sun'Sera, even though they took territory from you as well. In fact, 75% of the regions you have lost this war were taken by your allies or your own nobles. But apparently that's somehow our fault.

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Now the terms again. As I said in Bofeng’s letter to Velax, if Arcaea was serious in thinking of taking in Cathay into the Empire, why should we cede Ansopen, a rich region that we firmly controlled at that moment? Does it really matter if it’s in Cathay or Zonasa? We already lost the Duchy of Colosan and Duchy of Haul, and the war. What’s the point in further crippling a realm that is not bordering Arcaea? If the terms do not require Cathay to join the Empire, that’s a different story. Keep in mind that what Velax is trying to do is to ask many nobles families to swear loyalty to him. If he wants these 20+ noble families along with more in Kindara to swear loyalty to him, he has to demonstrate that he is a fair, just ruler with enough political wisdom to lead them. But he can’t deliver. He can’t even understand why so many nobles are so foolish in continuing the losing war. Now who should we blame?

Yourself. This entire little rant is apparently about not wanting to give up Ansopen, yet you leave out the fact that we specifically told you, twice, that we were willing to negotiate on Ansopen. You ignore that and, again, that's apparently our fault. And we said you could have Taop back, a region taken from you by your ally. So these terms could actually have seen Cathay larger than it currently is. But no, we're the horrible unreasonable ones just trying to break poor little innocent Cathay.

I feel that bears repeating. If you had been willing to negotiate properly, Cathay could have ended up with more territory than it has now. But you'd rather piss and moan and complain about how poorly you've been treated. You've only yourselves to blame for that. So please work harder, Bofeng and the Marshals of Cathay.

25
Far East Island / Re: North Vs. South
« on: July 11, 2014, 12:55:37 AM »
And my response:
1. A package deal with Cathay and Kindara is preferred if possible.

2. Banning Duke Usul is highly unlikely. Though I understand your pain in losing your brother, Duke Usul tortured him for a good reason. A reparation could be considered instead.

3. Cathay will not give up her claim on Ansopen, Taop, or Haul. Cathay has already lost the war. What’s the point in further crippling us?

In fact, my position was soft. But the nobles didn't feel that Velax was seriously in entering the talks because they felt the terms are humiliating. Nobles would rather die together with Cathay.

1. A ridiculous request, as the demands Kindara had made were unreasonable and there was no way any sort of "package deal" could be made without tossing existing RP out the window.

2. If you torture the brother of the enemy's leader and then lose the war, you should expect there to be consequences.

3. You were told you can have Taop and that Ansopen was negotiable. You didn't even control Haul and hadn't for months, so to claim it's "humiliating" to not be given back territory that your ally currently controls is ridiculous.

If you and your nobles felt the terms were humiliating, then you and your nobles are being unreasonable and overly prideful. Bofeng apparently had no issue bending the knee to another ruler but losing a stronghold that isn't yours and gaining a city is too embarrassing?

You received terms that boiled down to, "Give up two regions, one of which you don't currently control and the other we're willing to negotiate on, and ban one noble. Oh, and you'll get back the city your ally took from you" and this is apparently humiliating. This sort of attitude is why realms get destroyed. This refusal to admit that they should pay any sort of price for starting a war and losing it.

26
Far East Island / Re: North Vs. South
« on: July 10, 2014, 06:26:02 PM »
Don't be too sure that everyone who is in the Empire actually *likes* the Empire. Or wants to be in the Empire. Or even cares about the Empire at all. I would venture to say that a very significant number of people in the Empire are in it ether because their ruler decided to be part of it, or they did it simply to avoid destruction of their realm.

Exactly! And the same holds true for the reverse. A very significant number of people in the Free Realms didn't know or care about the Empire at all and hold no opinion on the "Empire model", but just happened to be in the realms whose rulers chose to fight against the Empire.

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My personal feeling is that an overall Empire model for FEI, assuming that Arcaea manages to establish an actual island-spanning Empire and make it stick, will be disastrous.

Honestly, if it all goes to !@#$, I'll just say, "Right, everyone drop relations to neutral and let's go back to the way things were".

27
Far East Island / Re: North Vs. South
« on: July 10, 2014, 06:21:56 PM »
C'mon, Velax, that was uncalled for. RL is RL.

Bleh, maybe. It just irritates me when people write multiple long replies but feel the need to end it with, "Oh, but I don't really care about this, so maybe I'll reply later, if I can be bothered". If you take the time to write half a dozen replies, it's obviously an issue you care about, so why pretend otherwise.

28
Far East Island / Re: North Vs. South
« on: July 10, 2014, 06:06:34 PM »
The betrayal of Cathay was the biggest sticking point there. There's also the point that if Kindara accepted peace but didn't want to take regions from Cathay, we might as well have wound up the realm anyway because it would have had no territory (remember that Haul and Taop are just on loan from Cathay). So the choices were: take land from Cathay. Or you can wind up your realm after peace. Or we can destroy you.

So...what were you expecting? "You've been completely and utterly defeated after never even coming close to winning a war you started, so here, have some territory from my ally"?

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Anyhoo, I have grocery shopping to do, so I might pick up on this thread later if I have the time.

Yes, yes. We're all very convinced by your show of nonchalance.

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It's also the height of arrogance for you to feel you personally know what are reasonable terms, isn't it?

No. I'm commenting on one set of terms. You're commenting on an entire community.

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Where the emphasis is trying to be put on never giving the loser terms that will humiliate them (them seeing the terms as humiliating, that is) and several wars have been stopped because of it.

The losers in a war are going to see virtually any terms as humiliating, because they're the losers. I really don't know how many times I have to say this, but if giving back the territory you took after starting a war and then losing is too unreasonable for you, then there's really nothing we can do for you.

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No, they're not based on nothing. I've seen the OOC messages in the south where people are saying this. You haven't. Several players also gave it as the OOC reason for moving their characters off the island when the glaicer hit.

Once more, I have to say that most of the opinions I've written in this thread is based on what people have being saying over the past few months about the Imperial model and their dislike of it. You can either believe me or not *shrugs*

Wow, "several". "Several" sounds rather similar to the "handful" that I mentioned, doesn't it. Again, neither you, nor anyone in Kindara, even know what the Imperial model is. There's a term for people who dislike something without knowing anything about what it is.

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That was true before the glacier. But not afterwards. You've also ignored the parts where Rosalind wanted a free south, enough territory to make Kindara a viable realm without harming Cathay. And, most importantly, the part where she wanted assurances that Kindara wouldn't be the whipping boy of the entire Empire each time it wanted a war.

So...you start a war, lose it - badly - and then want terms whereby restrictions are put on the winners? And you want us to give you territory we'd have to force out of Zonasa? Yes, that sounds completely reasonable and completely in keeping with the established RP of this war.

29
Far East Island / Re: North Vs. South
« on: July 10, 2014, 04:54:41 PM »
FWIW - I've never seen *any* terms or potential treaties related to the war on FEI. So far as I know, no one involved in the war has ever discussed any possible end to the war.

If it involves things like "Stay out of the war, at Peace or better with everyone on our side for 12 months", then it's bull!@#$.

Other terms that I have come to realize are bull!@#$ involve things like: "Abandon your allies. Declare war on them, and come fight for our side!" It's one thing if the losing side offers these terms, but to force them on the losers just sucks. Especially when it's backed by "do this or die".

Speak with your leaders. Terms have been discussed multiple times in the Assembly with Edan and Fergus, and Velax usually discusses them within Arcaea as well.

30
Far East Island / Re: North Vs. South
« on: July 10, 2014, 04:47:03 PM »
The reason I used the Caligus/Perdan comparision is because the terms were very similiar at their core - "accept drastically reduced territory and turn on your ally". In the case of Caligus, we got considerable OOC public outcry on the forum and elsewhere that Perdan was imposing unreasonable and humiliating terms on Caligus and damaging the game as a result of it. So that pressure eventually made Perdan modify its terms.

I should be absolutely clear that this isn't directed at you personally, Velax, but we now have a situation that's pretty similar on FEI. But we have deafening silence about the surrender terms here on the forum and everywhere else. This is really a criticism of the community, because we seem to be employing considerable double-standards to what we see as reasonable and unreasonable. Why the public outcry when Caligus was given terms its nobles said were unreasonable, but not when another realm is given terms its nobles say are unreasonable? I'm genuinely interested to hear from the community why that is? It seems to me that we either shrug and say "realms fall". Or we go for an approach that we prefer realms to be given face-saving surrender terms that allow them to live on in dignity. But which ever path we take has to be applied universally or it looks like we're all being hypocrites.

It isn't a double standard, because the terms you were offered weren't unreasonable. You've twice mentioned the "betray Cathay and attack them" term, but there are two things wrong there. First, you ignore the other three sets of terms you were offered beforehand. Second, you misrepresent the actual terms you were offered. You were not told you had to betray Cathay and attack them. You were told you had to give back territory claimed by Zonasa, but given you had lost most of your territory to the glacier, if you wanted more regions we'd help you take them from Cathay if you wished. How terribly evil and unreasonable of us. Why would we bother trying to force you to fight with us? We didn't do that with Ohnar and, frankly, we don't need the help of a crippled realm to win the war.

I should be absolutely clear here: if Kindara has an issue with the terms it was offered, then you are the unreasonable ones. It is the utter height of arrogance to claim that because there's no outcry over terms you personally think are unreasonable, there must be a double standard in the BM community.

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No, it's a problem for everyone on FEI. Like I said, the subtext running under it all is that the players on the island are deeply polarized into two groups - those who see your new empire model as a way they want to play; and those who are strongly opposed to it as a playing form. If I read his comment right, Anaris also recognised that as a problem for the island. As the Empire gained ground, the players who didn't want to play in it were pushed into Kindara. As you might remember, I initally thought your Empire idea was a good one and supported it through Rosalind in the Kindaran council, but I've since seen how many people are opposed to it. That's why Kindara lost half its noble count overnight when the glacier really started advancing - loads of people left the island because they didn't want to move to Imperial realms and no longer saw a way of fighting the Empire. Others quit, but that's a different story and more the fault of the glacier event than other factors.

Again, I'm not painting you personally or anyone in the Imperial realms as bad guys, but you need to know that there are a lot of players in the south who won't play under the Imperial model for the island. So if the Empire claims the entire island, players will move characters elsewhere or start new characters elsewhere. So the noble/player count on the island will fall. Maybe new nobles will come in to compensate to experience the Empire model of play, or maybe they won't. Who knows. Again, I'm not calling you a bad guy (and I don't know how much more I can emphasise that without putting it in big bold letters). But you need to be aware that there's a big group of players in the south who don't like the Empire model. I know you feel the Empire model will help the game, but I'm just being honest in telling you there are a lot of people who disagree.

And again, you make generalisations based on nothing. Most of those who are supposedly against the Empire likely aren't against "the Empire" at all. They're against Arcaea, or Sorraine, or Coralynth, or Zonasa, either because we defeated them or because they're of that group of people who will always hate the strongest force on any island, for no reason other than because they're the strongest. Of the 46 non-Empire nobles left, I'd say the number of players whose sole reason for being in Kindara or Cathay is that they "hate the Empire model" make up a bare handful. And those who do likely do so despite the fact that they have no idea what the so-called Empire model even is. For that matter, do you?

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Rosalind's bottom line on surrender terms has always been to have a south free of the Empire, assurances that Kindara and Cathay won't be the perpetual target of one-sided wars by the whole of the Empire, and - since the glacier - enough territory to make Kindara a viable realm. When Rosalind first got elected she offered to return all Zonasan territory except Batesoar, Alanurs, and the region east of Masahakon (forgotten it's name), but Velax refused to settle on that because he wanted to fulfill his promise to Zonasa to give them all of their territory back.

No, Rosalind's bottom line on surrender terms has been that you won't given back all the territory taken from Zonasa. That's been the one constant thread in all talks with Rosalind.

- To Ohnar West, join the Empire, keep your current regions (after losing some to the Empire), you don't have to fight your former allies, but you can't rejoin this war before its end.
- To Greater Aenilia, no terms; they were destroyed utterly due to serially pissing off Velax.
I believe Velax has mentioned terms to Kindara and Cathay earlier in the thread:
- To Kindara, a variety of degrees, but including, more or less, "give back the regions you took from Zonasa and we'll call it even", and, more recently, "you can't have any of Zonasa's regions, but if you want, we'll help you take regions from Cathay."
- To Cathay, again, a variety, but also including "you give up claim on one region you don't currently hold, and don't get any more regions back, and we'll call it a day."

The terms to Kindara and Cathay have also included some specific provisions to banish nobles that have taken especially egregious or highly targeted actions against the Empire in general, or Velax and his family specifically.

Again, this is my recollection off the top of my head, so it may not be 100% accurate—but I think it is important that it's my perception, as a leader of one side, of the terms that have been offered to our enemies in this war.

Aenilia were offered several sets of terms, but all were rejected. Even when Ironhorse, a family Velax can't stand, was ruler, he still tried to negotiate a surrender.

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