Messages

31

Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: June 20, 2013, 02:19:43 PM »

Not all Elders are like that, but the vast majority is. To understand the logic of those Elders we first need to realize their nature; they're mostly priests and politicians that don't benefit from intra-SA fighting, cause this diminishes their power and authority. Primarily authority. But on the other hand, they're eager to declare a crusade in those areas where SA's influence can spread and they're doing it to gain authority over larger mass of followers. For successful crusade means more people to do their bidding. It is a gutless politic of convenience that has no similarities with anything that can be considered spiritual. I find it highly amusing that this method backfired and that crusade in Terran has done more damage that what is worth.

From Leopold's perspective, the fact that the Elders are twitching and turning to appease him to rejoin the theocratic family makes him chuckle a bit. The Elders are on their knees and the fact that they bended so easily is another testament to Leopold of their spineless politicking. In the old days, to do what Leopold has done and get away with it would be impossible for the Church has been much more stricter then, but also more righteous than it is now. Now, the Elders seems to be run by characters who endlessly scheme to have their way ( I think some have labeled them as southern republicans ). I think there are a few of such characters, but I am primarily thinking of Hireshmont here for his trick with Terran is what alienated the relations. The fact that other Elders allowed Hireshmont to get away with it, and that he became the loudest voice that represents the Church is where the Elders have probably made a mistake.

From the perspective of a player, the fact that Elders are chickening out is quite a disappointment. To not keep in mind the pros this war would bring to Dwilight and Battlemaster as a whole is an oversight. Its like no one notices that theocracies are graveyards that boast the least number of characters on Dwilight and that are the most empty and void realms to play in. The goal of any player that has an important position in any realm and continent is to ensure that it is fun for others, too. I will draw a parallel with CE here, and say that Dwilight Northern federative block that is without a doubt intertwined and ruled by SA leadership is quite similar to CE. To bitch about a power block on one continent but do a similar thing on the other is quite a misguided understanding of player responsibility, and is usually done by same people.

In any case, I think that the odds for such a war are nowhere as one sided as the Elders think. The power of the theocracies are great even though they are a bit dormant. In fact, Leopold is making a huge risk for Niselur can easily be destroyed in the process. But I, as a player, am ready to take that risk regardless of the consequences and am driving Leopold according to that. I really don't want to have a King in the a** of the world that will never amount to anything or matter to anyone. I've built a massive IC story to further these goals the best I could, and the fact that the Elders are going great lengths to remain in the status quo is making it more difficult. But luckily for the players of Dwilight, the decision no longer rests in the hands of the Elders.

I'm not sure I understand your first point; how is using crusades to expand the religion a "gutless politics"? Sure from a modern day perspective we don't like it, but from a medieval mindset it makes perfect sense; while they seem to us a horrific abuse of religion the medieval crusades were seen at the time as a supremely spiritual venture (at least by a significant proportion of the Catholic Church).

As for war; for a short amount of time there was some serious tension in the Council between Hireshmont and Pierre and fanatics like Constantine and Turin over whether a crusade should be declared. However then Brance and Sergio basically said that in the case of a war against Nislur's alliance Astrum would be guaranteed to fall within a very short period of time even with Morek and Corsanctum's help. Regardless of the real odds you (or more accuratly the Farronites) have managed to convince Astrum  that they stand no chance, and when the soldiers who would be fighting the war claim they will lose within weeks it's really quite impossible for the Elders to seriously contemplate going ahead anyway.

I agree with some of the rest of what you have said; the blatant appeasement that Hireshmont is embarking on makes the Elders weakness painfully obvious and such a dramatic u-turn only makes us look worse not better. This is also a subject of significant debate in the Elders Council, but Hireshomnt is the only really active light and the one responsible for Church negotiations- short of removing him from power altogether there is little the other Elders can do but continue to voice their objections and prevent thesigning of any humiliating treaties.

32

Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: June 18, 2013, 01:53:25 AM »

There are two (well, probably like ten) games being played right now in SA. Those in the secular gallery trying to wield the levers of power to gain an upper hand, and those in the spiritual gallery sawing off the levers forever. A lot of people like SA as a purely religious force. They joined because religion in BM can offer something apart from the usual political chicanery. It can help one really develop a character. I'm willing to bet, given the stagnation caused by the secular gallery's regular (ab)use of the levers, that those same people will hand the "victory" to the spiritual gallery.

The fact that SA has political power is in my opinion one of the things that make it different from other standard BM religions. Very, very few players are willing to sit through and write scores of theological disputes if there is no way for either party to "win" by enforcing itself upon the other; this is why most BM religions are dead boring and become little more than background flavor in a secular world. And yes non-political religions can of course make for good character development, but these characters will then typically act out most of their story within their realm (because there are only many long rp letters one can post before one needs to actually do something significant) leaving the religion a silent shell.

Also I'm not sure I agree with your characterisation of "spiritual" and "secularist" factions in SA. While I agree that  many secularists on both sides of the recent conflicts are trying to pull the levers of SA to gain political power, I don't think any of those arguing that the Church should have no political power are anything more than secularists themselves- they don't want a more "spiritual" SA, they want one that keeps quiet and damned well out of their business. Most of the characters that have actually contributed to the "spiritual" side of SA in the past seem more in support of a political Church than against it, likely as Vellos said so that they can actually enforce orthodoxy rather than their see their various beliefs become essentially meaningless.

33

Dwilight / Re: What makes a D'haran?

« on: June 17, 2013, 04:07:08 AM »

D'Hara's new flag? I can also crop/change the text as needed.

I think definitely lose the text, but apart from that I like it. Its certainly better than our old one at any rate.

34

Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: June 17, 2013, 01:40:46 AM »

Oh, Hireshmont fully intends to chicken out and to encourage the cowardice of others.

Too much to lose. You've built too big an alliance network; it's not a winning fight.

The way I see it the Elders Council loses either way. If the Elders do chicken out (and that's very much over Constantine's dead body) then the Farronite-Niselur bloc will realise how strong their hand is and effectively veto any major Church decision that doesn't go their way. The Elders Council will lose much of its power and I doubt we will see any crusades in the near future. If the situation persists we may see the end of SA as a large powerblock.

SA only works if enough nobles are willing to voluntarily give their loyalty to the religion that the rest of the membership are too afraid of the religion to break free. The current conflict is the tipping point- if SA cannot subdue Niselur and co. (either through war or by convincing Niselur to remain a theocracy by other means) then it does not have the power to enforce loyalty outside of the small number of characters who are willing to obey the Elders for purely rp reasons. If the balance does not tip back, SA could potentially become just like most other BM religions; a nice rp-point and forum for discussion, but not an organisation that can wield effective political power.

35

Dwilight / Re: Order of Aristocrats

« on: June 07, 2013, 03:20:37 AM »

The Order of Aristocrats is one guild for everyone. It is for the Aristocrats to chat and boast etc. The Great Houses are other guilds separate from the aristocracy and specific to the aristocrats who inhabit them. So first, a noble has to join the Aristocracy. Then, a bunch of like minded aristocrats form their own Great House and try to snuff out the other Great Houses.

Advantages are contacts, prestige, honor, wealth, privilege and ultimately the world! We have Kings, but now we have the chance to make a King of Kings.

Is a new era of Dwilight

Ah, that does make much more sense. It will be interesting to see whether this truly takes off, and even if it does it will be hard to make people break out of the "realm as a team" mindset.

36

Dwilight / Re: Order of Aristocrats

« on: June 06, 2013, 11:53:10 PM »

If a group of nobles from different realms all wanted to scheme together, why would they join a guild where all their ranks and membership will be known to rival factions rather than found their own private guild/secret society? And even if they didn't mind it being public, wouldn't it still make sense to have their own guild where they could make full use of the guild treasuries without fear that rival factions may take the gold, not to mention the ease of being able to use the full members channel rather than having to scroll down and select your own faction members every time you want to send a message.

Am I missing something here? What possible motivation would multi-realm factions have to join the Order of Aristocrats? What advantages does it confer?

37

Dwilight / Re: 101 Ways to Destabalize the Northern Astroist Federation

« on: June 04, 2013, 01:57:39 PM »

My best ally wouldn't put my realm in such a position of vulnerability without even consulting me first.

Had Phantaria called your bluff, and Morek been forced to punish either Phantaria or Niselur-Libero, who'd be backing that D'Hara-Luria Nova peace treaty? Alice just learnt that Morek was still pledging to militarily defend D'Hara if Luria Nova chose to break it, which she was getting ready to do...

Yea, my best ally would put us alone against the forces of Aurvandil, Phantaria (kinda), Saffalore, Falkirk (kinda), and Luria Nova. Totally. My best ally would also totally usurp traditional 'moot territory to place a foreign-backed non-republic on our doorstep. He'd also create a useless tension among the realms of the region, when really what we'd truly need to is bring everyone back together to KO the weakened states of Aurvandil and Falkirk.

But yea, sure, go ahead and claim that...

Does Chenier really think the Elders consider things like this when they deliberate? There are many reasons why some Elders have reason to doubt the crusade but D'Hara's secular concerns really aren't one of then- it's not even on Constantine's radar and he's probably the "most D'Haran" Elder there.

38

Dwilight / Re: 101 Ways to Destabalize the Northern Astroist Federation

« on: June 01, 2013, 10:01:30 PM »

Mathurin's letter to the full members regarding the crusade wasn't sent until after the crusade was declared. Nowhere, elders or full members, did Mathurin ever say "We should call a crusade" or "A crusade is a really good idea". What he said was: "Indeed, I am closer to considering this matter to be worthy of a crusade than that of Aurvandil." After the crusade was called, Mathurin sent a letter to all members of the church explaining the reason for the Crusade, and said "I expect all pious members of Sanguis Astroism to offer what assistance they can." Again, not a ringing endorsement of the Crusade, merely "I expect you all to do your duty".

I'm pretty sure Medugnatos said he had got the Prophet's blessing in person before he called the crusade, and the Prophet explicitly mentioned this when he said to the full members "I do not give my blessing lightly". I can understand why as a non-Elder it might seem like the whole thing was cooked up by Hireshmont, but from within the Elders Council it seemed pretty clear to me that several Elders supported it, Mathurin endorsed it, and most of the rest didn't think it was too bad (well at least that's how it seemed before several Elders later declared they always thought it was terrible.)

Of course everyone knew the Farronites hated the idea, but I'm surprised at the level of theocratic backlash considering so few spoke either in full members or in the Council on the issue. It's pretty hard to gauge theocratic opinion when the majority of active Church members are not theocrats.

39

Dwilight / Re: 101 Ways to Destabalize the Northern Astroist Federation

« on: May 30, 2013, 02:46:27 AM »

D'Hara will be too busy to pick sides.

I do hope so- without a war against LN to distract him I have a funny feeling that Rynn would probably ride out to defend his one true love and drag the rest of D'Hara kicking and screaming with him.

40

Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur

« on: May 28, 2013, 11:08:38 AM »

I don't know how many times I or anyone else in D'Hara have related Lurians to traitorous bitches that are better dead than alive. That is racism (quite justified by the way) Will I be reported to the Magistrates if I continue to do so?

That's exactly my point- IC racism against IC races is one thing, and quite arguable for on the bases of medieval racism. However I have yet to see any evidence of the existence of an IC race with "slanted eyes and yellow skin" for Kas the character to IC hate on. The whole incident seems to have been entirely lifted word for word from OOC ethnic slurs, with little or no IC context, for some reason I cannot fathom.

If you want to argue for IC racism against IC races that's fine by me, but this does not seem the case here. Even in medieval rp I would expect players to have enough common sense not to use well known modern OOC slurs against specific OOC ethnic groups and randomly insert them in the game with no IC context.

41

Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur

« on: May 27, 2013, 10:28:13 PM »

It should be fine if it happens IC with no real ill will behind it, only representing the character's low opinion of a particular ethnic group.

I think that this is clearly not the case here. There is no rp context whatsoever for the statement, no IC ethnic group with narrow eyes and yellow skin for Kas the character to hate. The racism seems to be randomly lifted from RL stereotypes and placed entirely without context into the game. If one wants to insult those evil and misshapen Toprakians then there is an argument to be made to allow IC medieval racism (though personally I think it best to be cautious anyway). But this is not the case here, and even if this is some kind of attempt to create "atmosphere" by introducing medieval racism then we should make it very clear that randomly inserting RL ethnicities and racist slurs word for word into the game with no IC or RP context whatsoever is not the correct way to go about it.

42

Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: May 26, 2013, 08:06:57 PM »

Well the Elder's Council has just about descended into absolute chaos...

43

Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: May 18, 2013, 11:52:47 AM »

I think Vellos is over-estimating just how many people support him...

I think you're overestimating the amount of dissent. Very few of the protests actually came from people with serious power; the theocracies at least seem fully committed, and whether some minor Maroccidental lords care for the new Terran hardly matters. The only tricky one is of course the Farronite Republic with Gustav, but I suppose that depends on whether Khari really wants to give the Elders even more reasons to dismiss and criticise her.

Furthermore I think the idea that if Phantaria gets rid of Terran quickly the Church will just declare "oh well, we tried" and give up is misguided. I can certainly envision a re-conquest in such a situation.

44

Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: April 19, 2013, 12:27:50 AM »

Not so. All our laws came of FRs free will when requested by Vellos. The kicking and screaming came from the church when we passed the open preaching law which we then revoked by a new vote.

So it's entirely a coincidence that the new vote in which the Farronite Lords changed their minds came after the church berated and condemned them for passing it? Perhaps I'm mistaken because I'm not in FR but it certainly seems to me that were it not for the church's nagging, Farronite law would have remained quite un-theocratic in this area. And quite frankly I think most of the Elders do not see much appeal in having to nag one of their "theocracies" to death every time a new crisis crops up requiring a new law or other service from them.

Furthermore I was also specifically thinking about the situation with Allison- while that is not mentioned in the Charter, harboring Allison was a very un-theocratic action and Khari made a point of emphasizing that she did not care whatsoever what the church thought on the matter and that the execution was done entirely for personal reasons. A "theocracy" whose ruler makes a point of deliberately ignoring the Elders Council on important issues is again not something I think most Elders want to deal with.

Wait, the Charter provides NO GUIDANCE WHATSOEVER ABOUT HOW TO DEFINE THEOCRACY?

Oh my goodness! What an ACCIDENTAL OVERSIGHT!

Wait a second... Astrum and Morek and Corsanctum don't abide by all the responsibilities listed?

ZOMG! How could the person writing the Charter have been so careless!

I don't know what to say, guys, this is all just one big terrible mixup that the Farronite Republic might be more eligible for theocratic status than Morek! I swear I didn't mean it!

The ambiguity cuts both ways however. As Constantine pointed out when the new Charter was being voted for, there are no details whatsoever as to how or if a realm could become a theocracy. All that is listed are the requirements for already existing and future theocracies. So while the ambiguity does mean that an Elders Council favorable to FR could admit them on the grounds they meet the requirements, there is absolutely nothing in the Charter that requires an Elders Council less friendly to FR to do so. And I would argue that the majority of the current Elders Council seems certainly quite against the notion of giving FR theocracy status.

As I said Constantine has noted this ambiguity, and is quite happy with it- he is not against FR becoming a theocracy on principle, and if circumstances were different may have in fact been favorable to their entry (though perhaps as a "faithful realm" rather than using the word theocracy). However he feels that with the current leadership of FR being as it is, making them a theocracy will merely give Khari more excuses to ignore the Elders when it suits her and thereby actually harm the church rather than benefit it.

45

Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: April 18, 2013, 12:37:13 PM »

As to D'hara, it is a monarchy, but simply stating it as a monarchy is extremely misleading as it is inaccurate, which I believe goes with FR. It is a republic yes, but it is truly a theocratic republic.

A realm that has to be dragged kicking and screaming to pass even the most basic "theocratic" laws, hardly qualifies as "theocratic".