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Messages - Morningstar

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166
SM General Discussion / Re: Relaunch ?
« on: August 05, 2011, 05:36:10 AM »
Here's maybe a fairly important thing to nail down early.  Should we dredge up some of the old content from (at least) the initial SM and maybe the first SM2 concept so that people coming in brand new to the concept can get a feel for the world and the backstory?  Or do we let those who have knowledge of the past be the historians, of sort, and make it more realistic, where most of the new players have scattered and limited understanding of what's taken place in the past?

I can see great reasoning, both Meta and IC, for doing either one.

167
Roleplaying / Re: SpellMaster Revival
« on: August 05, 2011, 05:32:17 AM »
Greg, I wasn't around for SM or SM2. Just the revival we attempted back from... late 04 to basically mid 06.  But I think I have everything that happened on the RP list or later the SM list that related to it.

168
Roleplaying / Re: SpellMaster Revival
« on: August 04, 2011, 10:28:23 PM »
It sounds like we have at least a core of interested people.  What's the next step?  And how can I help?

-Greg

This.  Consider this us talking to you, Tom.  Where are we headed and how can we help?

169
Roleplaying / Re: SpellMaster Revival
« on: August 04, 2011, 04:07:56 AM »
It'll be hard without the old websites... there were six councils.  Mage's Guild, House of Chaos, Adventurers, The Underworld, Nature's People(?), and a sixth who was a very late addition I can't recall.

Barbaric/Barbarians?

Also, I think I have any of the failed startup discussions from the RP list a few years ago when we tried again, as well as any of the RP done with those characters.  If anyone wants any of that.

170
Roleplaying / Re: SpellMaster Revival
« on: August 03, 2011, 11:25:51 PM »
Does anyone happen to know why everything related to SpellMaster got pulled down? We used to have a decent bit going on here on the wiki, and all the old sites were accessible.  Now the links are dead and there's only one generic SM page.

171
Roleplaying / Re: SpellMaster Revival
« on: August 03, 2011, 10:51:59 PM »
Brilliant, Loren.  Did you happen to be reading this or were we both just thinking on identical wavelengths this week?

172
BM General Discussion / Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« on: August 03, 2011, 10:19:21 PM »
And that's just what I'm trying to get at (I think).  Nobody's a purist in any of the 3 categories.  Or if they really are, they find they have nobody else to play with.

I'm open to all sorts of ideas.  New map (we do, after all, have a few new map projects going on), old unused map (someone mentioned rediscovering the South Island), or a tweaking of the current map (FEI is a modified EI, for example).

We'd have to look long and hard at a project in an existing world, because it would all be contingent on what's already been established (which there's no guarantee we could know) and would change based on what happens parallel to the project in the game itself.  It's not an impossible endeavor, but it would be tricky.  Personally, I think I'd rather start fresh, but I could be convinced otherwise.

173
BM General Discussion / Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« on: August 03, 2011, 08:26:12 PM »
Could very well be. Or the same situation happened and so those people moved on from the game entirely.  I know that was my deal.

174
BM General Discussion / Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« on: August 03, 2011, 06:17:44 PM »
I completely agree with pretty much everything you said.  I'm definitely not one of the purists out there.  I'm just looking for some balance.  And I definitely agree you can't force people to be something that they're not.  Subtle (or not so subtle) nudging is sometimes appropriate to get them to think outside their own bubbles though.  After all, the premise of this whole thing is to be a group of friends playing a game together, right?  You can't play to the exclusion of someone just because their style of play isn't like yours or it's not very "together".

175
BM General Discussion / Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« on: August 03, 2011, 04:38:58 PM »
Ahee. So I'm starting to figure out the part about people trying to "fix" me.  "Go start things up and see if you get any interest", right?

Welcome to this thread.  Where the original post ended "So... who wants to build a world together?"  It's working already, isn't it? ;D

Could it come to conclusion that none of described extremes is good, but good balance between "strategy" and "rp"-ing is what can bring quality of gameplay?

Yes, in terms of "the perfect game", this is absolutely true.  But when it plays out, the games that try to cater to all styles end up muddling around in mediocrity with all of them.  As I mentioned before, the game has to be a simulation.  The various player styles pulling it gamist or narrativist is to be expected, but knowing it's virtually impossible to completely please them all is fairly important.

And look, I know the value of "winning" (no Charlie Sheen joke intended... until just now).  With my old account, I would sometimes, just for fun, direct some of my more "narrative" action just so I could hit another more elusive point of fame.  I certainly love(d) me some tactical battles, as should be clear in my recent suggestions for combat features.  But take the "game" out of the "story" and I would still survive.  For others, taking the "story" out of the game would be just fine.  That's just the way people are wired.

I've been working on some changes that should return more narrative to the game for a long time now.

Unfortunately, over the years the BM codebase has become a pretty horrible mess. We're working on cleaning that up now, which is a requirement for some of the more interesting changes to actually ever be finished.

Awesome.  I still don't know how you've managed to balance everything all these years, but I salute you.  I tracked down my old Titan resignation email because I felt like I shared something similar then.  It still seems to hold true now: "Never lose sight of what originally made it so appealing.  It wasn't the features or the functionality.  It was the feeling of a close-knit community.  Continue to make that an integral part of the game and it can only get better."

I'm not the biggest codemonkey, but if there's anything I might be able to do to help, just yell.

176
BM General Discussion / Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« on: August 03, 2011, 08:28:09 AM »
My understanding was that the FEI, when it started was not an in game island. Thus all interaction was through the RPs. The argument is that once the island was created in game, there was a push by some players that were more focused on the game mechanic elements that gradually eroded the strong RP emphasis of the island.

Or this if my last post was tl:dr

177
BM General Discussion / Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« on: August 03, 2011, 08:27:09 AM »
There was something... unique about being able to follow the stories of people in other realms, and because of that, the goings on of other realms.  It was the RP list that largely made that happen. I fully recognize that not every player jumped onboard with that, but the ones that did- even if only out of vague interest- seemed to be hooked.  It was like being a part of a novel that was being written, but you only had control over your own individual aspect and so the outcome was always unknown and kept you on the edge of your seat.

Greg is absolutely right about sometimes waiting up to see just who might jump in next or waking up in a cold sweat because that speech you wanted to make on the Senate floor finally came to you.  And there was an entertainment value to it.  You wanted to keep the other players entertained.  And so there was thought put into everything that was put out there because you didn't want to disappoint.

You ask how we went away from it?  And that's where I point back to the simulationist parts of us taking over.  Instead of describing the journey from Ipsosez to Haul and perhaps even having conversations on the way with a traveling companion, eventually we had mechanics to show- without description or narrative- that we were indeed moving from Ipsosez to Haul. And if we weren't in the same region literally in mechanics-terms, interaction with a non-realm member was extremely difficult.  To the point of it ceasing altogether.  Once the mechanics were in full swing, the roleplaying on the mailing list quickly became (mostly) banter between the rulers that people wanted to make sure remained public.  And even that, after awhile, went away.  Aside from that, the rare posts were typically done when attempting to describe or initiate something intra-realm and it was the best and only way to make that happen.  Narrative was replaced by Simulation.

As the simulation began to shape the way we narrated the story, we also had a second (or third) influx of characters.  Ones that were more eager to get into the number-crunching side of things and to find out how they could best improve their standing/stats/titles/etc.  And, while there's nothing wrong with that- we all, to some degree, play games to win them.  But even more by this point, Narrative was being replaced by Game.  No longer was everyone attempting to describe what happened.  And they weren't even just letting the simulation describe the events for them.  Now we had those who were looking to specifically make the game mechanics do something for them that is anathema to the "Story First" crowd- win.

And because we had all largely abandoned the thing that had once kept the story going (the unifying mailing list), the ones who wanted to focus on "story" felt detached and cut off.  I remember big arguments coming about around this time that the "strategy players are taking over and can't we do something to make them actually roleplay?"  The reaction, obviously, was "We are roleplaying. We're playing our roles as if we were the character. This is what I would do!" 

The big divide of "RPers" and "Strat players" squared off, like they usually do.  "It's pointless to have to try to read through someone's 4 pages of drivel about how their mommies were mean to them and their brother took all the good candy. Just play the damn game!" came from one side, while "They're ruining my story because all they care about is the numbers. That's not what real roleplaying is!" was shouted back.

The problem is, and has always been, that this game at its core is a simulation.  It at least used to say that flat out somewhere in the early descriptions, and probably still does.  Everything about the mechanics is to simulate actual events and put it in text format for people to read and interpret.  And coming at this from two opposite ends of the spectrum are crowds who want to "beat the game and get the highest score" or "I want to develop an incredibly original character idea about a pirate captain who has personality quirks, hates to lose his hat, and can't seem to keep track of his ship- and no it's not been done before!"  Both are playing the "roleplaying game". Both are playing it the way they know how.  But both don't always see eye to eye on how to go about that.

Gamists had an outlet with the South Islands and now with the War Islands mini game.  FEI originated as a haven for the Narrativist, but I just gave you the evolution of the island and hopefully nobody disagrees that it hasn't been that in a long time.

Hopefully I did a better job of explaining myself.  I'm not looking for massive overhauls to the game in order to make things "interesting and fun to me".  I like the game (always have) for what it is.  I'm just pointing out that there was a number of longtime players- many who had been around since 2004 or some even the full duration of BM's existence- who found the startup of FEI to be the single greatest thing to happen to the game.  And we'd like a chance to try that again in some capacity.

As for a new drawing pad taking up way too much time for Tom and the devs... well, for one, a number of those interested in such a project are devs. They can decide for themselves what they can handle.  And two, did you miss the part about SM and FEI both starting off as nothing but a freeform mailing list?  ;)

178
BM General Discussion / Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« on: August 03, 2011, 07:22:56 AM »
It's all good and well to want to start a large, engrossing, creative project, but it's another thing to create interesting character developments and interactions. As a writer, I find myself doing the former - starting Great New Projects - and it's a form of procrastination to avoid doing the latter.

Creating a new project appeals to people who like to create and work on large new projects. It doesn't necessarily appeal to people who like to create nuanced story arcs. Are you sure it's the latter you really want, and not the former?

The original FEI history and startup intrigue was fascinating specifically because it was made up of carefully crafted, developed characters who played off of each other and whose players were constantly learning about their own characters as they went along.  No worldbuilding could truly be organic and believable if it were all about places and landmarks and ancient history. The characters within are what make the canvas pop with beauty and draw people in.

I'm finding it difficult to debate the matter with people who are saying "you're clearly doing it wrong" when my argument was "we clearly did something right and then went away from it".  I don't need anyone to tell me how to build a world or how to draw people to such a project.  We did it a few times, as mentioned in the OP.  I've written mechanics and settings for a number of tabletop RPGs personally.  It's like we're arguing different premises or something.

Maybe my inferences to the gamist/narrativist/simulationist model were overlooked and so much of what I said is not really being understood.  Maybe some are trying to "fix" my problem with the game, which wasn't the point and they're proving mine in doing so.  Or maybe I've just been away too long and am simply being reminded that some people just like to argue.  Not sure.

179
BM General Discussion / Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« on: August 03, 2011, 06:04:28 AM »
"Epic" was probably not the best choice of wording, but I can tell you're going to want to argue semantics, regardless.  There were dozens of nuanced story arcs created in the early days of FEI that provided opportunities for lots of people to jump in at different angles and with different perspectives. It's what made the island such an initial draw for people.

Creating something from the ground up on such a large scale quickly makes everything pretty organic in the way it plays itself out, if it's done well.  You can create a small story about a simple town and have a limited number of people feebly attempt to participate in something they can't fully dive into.  Or you can crack open a brand new drawing pad, throw open a box of crayons, and say "kids, draw a picture"- I guarantee you'll get bigger, better, and more numerous results from the second.

180
BM General Discussion / Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« on: August 02, 2011, 07:05:53 AM »
Discovery and detailing of places is one of the great things about Battlemaster, and you don't need a whole new continent created specifically to do that.

Here's something you could do right now: pick a region. Find its population. Then figure how many villages, towns and/or cities would be in it. Then write the names of some of those smaller settlements. Make up a tiny story to go with each one. Put it on the wiki, and/or forum, and go to town in it (ha, no pun intended) in roleplays.

See, I think that's what I'd throw under the "simulationist" bus where Dwilight fell.  That gets too much into the nitty gritty details.  We're not looking to have an encyclopedia full of random places and people. We're wanting to create an epic storyline and watch it take on a life of its own.

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