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Beluaterra / Re: Netherworld
« on: March 17, 2016, 12:26:38 AM »
The idea of giving people information and then waiting for them to work together to do something is a cool concept. If it works, it works, if it doesn't it doesn't. I think we can all accept that. One missed data point could make a campaign not work. That is life. And that is gaming.
That idea is marred when the GMs' first reaction to just that multinational cooperation is the simple erasure of an entire city's fortification, the magical transportation of a major army away from their destination near the rendezvous point, and the ambushing of another army moving to rendezvous with them. The effect of these actions is the GMs informing the players that weeks of plans and diplomacy and information sharing will not be allowed to affect the invasion. Any attempts to do so will be dealt with. The GMs have a plan and the players will not be allowed to change it.
GundamMerc's statement "Beluaterra isn't about "winning" the invasion, it is about surviving it until the point comes where the GMs start giving you tools to fight back , a la the Temples of Light" is actually a perfect summation of that idea.
Either these Invasions are about pushing the players to work together to survive, or they are about the GMs beating the players up until they decide to give whatever players still remain the tools to effectively fight back. The first is what the Invasion seemed to be at first. The rogues were multiplying into groups large enough that even entire nations were having trouble fighting them. The battle of the Shattered Vales was rather amazing to watch from a distance, and if Nothoi had sent more help than we did it might have turned out differently. Of course we were busy with some rather big rogue bands ourselves. Just nothing like that superswarm once it started developing.
GundamMerc's idea that this is about the GMs beating the players up until the point they start giving us tools to fight back seems to be more what it is now with the Daimons using portals and such to stop the players from cooperating. Daimons entering a region and somehow becoming the defenders when fighting the units that have been in control of the region for many turns is one of those things that just looks fishy from the outside. Teleporting the bulk of an army halfway across the continent when the players try to work together makes players wonder why they bother trying to work together. Erasing every single fortification of an entire city is a direct strike against the players who have built those walls and depend on them to help defend their cities.
I mean...the Shattered Vales had an amazing story. Standing against swarms and swarms of undead and monsters until finally being overwhelmed by the swarms. The current Daimon story line of not allowing the players to work together is much less amazing...
As for the Temples of Light. I played one of the High Priests who directed a temple of light. I "erased" hundreds of Daimons with that weapon. Until the GMs chose to take it away immediately after several of our players had sacrificed their characters in order to power it. I have long believed as a player that the temples of light were not really a weapon against the Daimons. They were I think at best a transporter that moved them from place to place. Also the Temples of Light required blood to operate, which is what the Daimons always use for all their things. They always practice blood magic of some kind. But they were the weapon provided by the GMs for us to fight so I used that weapon as much as I could in hopes that it would tip the balance. But in the end there were always more Daimons that moved in to replace the "destroyed" Daimons. And the general number of Daimons attacking Creasur just kept increasing. The more I used the temple, and the more players sacrificed their characters to power the temple, the more Daimons appeared to attack Creasur. And then the GMs took away the Temple of Light and overwhelmed the city with a force of Daimons larger than anything they had ever had before the Temple of Light showed up.
We were doing exactly what GundamMerc said as we considered that our only option of survival in the end. Surviving long enough for the GMs to give us a weapon to use against the Daimons. Using that weapon as much as possible. Doing blood magic and sacrifices to make it as powerful as possible so it would fire as often as possible. The combined forces of three massive realms worked together to fight the Daimons with every weapon we had or that the GMs provided us. The Daimons ground all of those weapons down, and then the GMs removed the Temple of Light so the Daimons could finish us.
So I've always thought the Temple of Light was just a very elegant bait and switch by the GMs to use the players to weaken themselves and strengthen the Daimons. But as GundamMerc said, it was the weapon the GMs provided us so we used it in hopes that it would help.
That idea is marred when the GMs' first reaction to just that multinational cooperation is the simple erasure of an entire city's fortification, the magical transportation of a major army away from their destination near the rendezvous point, and the ambushing of another army moving to rendezvous with them. The effect of these actions is the GMs informing the players that weeks of plans and diplomacy and information sharing will not be allowed to affect the invasion. Any attempts to do so will be dealt with. The GMs have a plan and the players will not be allowed to change it.
GundamMerc's statement "Beluaterra isn't about "winning" the invasion, it is about surviving it until the point comes where the GMs start giving you tools to fight back , a la the Temples of Light" is actually a perfect summation of that idea.
Either these Invasions are about pushing the players to work together to survive, or they are about the GMs beating the players up until they decide to give whatever players still remain the tools to effectively fight back. The first is what the Invasion seemed to be at first. The rogues were multiplying into groups large enough that even entire nations were having trouble fighting them. The battle of the Shattered Vales was rather amazing to watch from a distance, and if Nothoi had sent more help than we did it might have turned out differently. Of course we were busy with some rather big rogue bands ourselves. Just nothing like that superswarm once it started developing.
GundamMerc's idea that this is about the GMs beating the players up until the point they start giving us tools to fight back seems to be more what it is now with the Daimons using portals and such to stop the players from cooperating. Daimons entering a region and somehow becoming the defenders when fighting the units that have been in control of the region for many turns is one of those things that just looks fishy from the outside. Teleporting the bulk of an army halfway across the continent when the players try to work together makes players wonder why they bother trying to work together. Erasing every single fortification of an entire city is a direct strike against the players who have built those walls and depend on them to help defend their cities.
I mean...the Shattered Vales had an amazing story. Standing against swarms and swarms of undead and monsters until finally being overwhelmed by the swarms. The current Daimon story line of not allowing the players to work together is much less amazing...
As for the Temples of Light. I played one of the High Priests who directed a temple of light. I "erased" hundreds of Daimons with that weapon. Until the GMs chose to take it away immediately after several of our players had sacrificed their characters in order to power it. I have long believed as a player that the temples of light were not really a weapon against the Daimons. They were I think at best a transporter that moved them from place to place. Also the Temples of Light required blood to operate, which is what the Daimons always use for all their things. They always practice blood magic of some kind. But they were the weapon provided by the GMs for us to fight so I used that weapon as much as I could in hopes that it would tip the balance. But in the end there were always more Daimons that moved in to replace the "destroyed" Daimons. And the general number of Daimons attacking Creasur just kept increasing. The more I used the temple, and the more players sacrificed their characters to power the temple, the more Daimons appeared to attack Creasur. And then the GMs took away the Temple of Light and overwhelmed the city with a force of Daimons larger than anything they had ever had before the Temple of Light showed up.
We were doing exactly what GundamMerc said as we considered that our only option of survival in the end. Surviving long enough for the GMs to give us a weapon to use against the Daimons. Using that weapon as much as possible. Doing blood magic and sacrifices to make it as powerful as possible so it would fire as often as possible. The combined forces of three massive realms worked together to fight the Daimons with every weapon we had or that the GMs provided us. The Daimons ground all of those weapons down, and then the GMs removed the Temple of Light so the Daimons could finish us.
So I've always thought the Temple of Light was just a very elegant bait and switch by the GMs to use the players to weaken themselves and strengthen the Daimons. But as GundamMerc said, it was the weapon the GMs provided us so we used it in hopes that it would help.
