Author Topic: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed  (Read 39729 times)

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Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Topic Start: August 17, 2011, 07:26:49 PM »
Summary:Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
Violation:Playing at your own speed, timing and activity level
World:Dwilight
Complainer:James Marshall
About:Balewin

Full Complaint Text:
The following is an extract of a letter sent today:

"...Failure to regularly provide a report on a daily basis will also be considered dereliction of duty and may result in fines..."

Which is going against a player's right to play at their own speed.

(As no-one has started a 'proper' case yet, I thought that I would (rather than send the message to the player directly) as it gives the chance for proper discussion and action.)

Shizzle

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #1: August 17, 2011, 07:33:12 PM »
I've seen similar pleas before. As I recall it, it is okay to fine characters for faillure of in-game duties.

Also, the full paragraph you refer to was:

Quote
"Let me be clear that I'm not going to tolerate any lack of discipline. I will make sure that fines are levied on any noble that actively hampers our efforts in Maraba. There will be no public hangings or raids without express orders. Failure to regularly provide a report on a daily basis will also be considered dereliction of duty and may result in fines, but it will take a lot of time for that to happen."

Besides, it's not because he threatens to fine you that you cannot play at your own speed. You could just pay the fine and play as slowly as you want, or you could come up with some sort of IC excuse. I believe anything will do. Hell, two OOC words saying 'not possible' would probably be enough to earn mercy :)

PS: I'll make it clear that I see this in no way as an extension of Skyndarbau and Tarajist's in-game quarrel. This is my personal opinion, not Skyndarbau's.

Also, I think it's good you took this here. Anything is better than the 100 letter OOC flaming I've seen in Thalmarkin a few weeks ago :P
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 07:34:52 PM by Shizzle »

Fleugs

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #2: August 17, 2011, 08:08:37 PM »
Besides, it's not because he threatens to fine you that you cannot play at your own speed. You could just pay the fine and play as slowly as you want, or you could come up with some sort of IC excuse. I believe anything will do. Hell, two OOC words saying 'not possible' would probably be enough to earn mercy :)

I must disagree with the "you could just pay the fine". A judge (assuming it's a judge who wrote this), should always make sure that there are no OOC-reasons as to why a character did not live up to its duties. When I used to be judge I often took the stance of "I'll warn him now and wait two weeks" or "wait until I see him do something". Catching them on not-reading your warning is a valid reason to fine someone because they are ignoring the judge... which is of course not acceptable ingame. Nevertheless when there is a suspicion of lesser activity by the player, caution is advised. You don't want to fine someone just because he didn't log in: I do believe that is a violation of the inalienable rights. In my opinion an IC-reason should not even be given if the player does not feel like it; a simple OOC-message saying "No can do" should be more than enough. But IC-reasons make the game more interesting, of course.

On another note I believe that the entire letter/parapgraph should have been given at the first place. It's all about context, and Shizzle's copypasta made it clear that the judge would most likely not jump to hasty conclusions when someone fails to answer him after day one. I think he was trying to make clear in an IC fashion that he would take OOC-reasons into account, as he should. It's nice to see a case here though; finally this system can be put to test.

Also, what is "a report"?
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Shizzle

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #3: August 17, 2011, 08:21:43 PM »
I agree with everything you say, Fleugs. That's a first :)
I assume a report would be a message saying "your men work and toil for 7 hours, and production in the region has gone up 5% to 74%."

And also, the person sending the letter was a Marshal, not a Judge. Hell, I'll just provide the full letter.

Quote
Letter from Balewin Duckmane   (4 hours, 20 minutes ago)
Message sent to all members of the Fissoa Privateers (14 recipients)
Privateers,

We've been gracious enough to give the people of Maraba three opportunities to accept our governance willingly, but they have been stubborn to say the least. Therefore, I am enacting martial law in the region until they learn to behave themselves better.

Lord Periurium will be initiating a takeover in Maraba after sunset. Once that is successful, we will be keeping 1500cs worth of troops in Maraba at all times as a police force. This may seem a high number, but if the Verminators aren't able to keep the rogues at bay we need to have enough troops to disperse them quickly.

Those stationed in Maraba are expected to perform police work. I want a 24 hours presence in the region so that there are no opportunities for insurgency. Lord Ayrl will hold court regularly to judge those rebels that we round up. You must report to me daily on how many hours you spent policing and when half your equipment is damaged.

Those not stationed in Maraba will be on standby in Mangai. The Verminators report a strong risk of invasion from the Palm Sea and we must be prepared.

Let me be clear that I'm not going to tolerate any lack of discipline. I will make sure that fines are levied on any noble that actively hampers our efforts in Maraba. There will be no public hangings or raids without express orders. Failure to regularly provide a report on a daily basis will also be considered dereliction of duty and may result in fines, but it will take a lot of time for that to happen.

I will be giving specific orders for each troop leader soon. If you will not be able to complete the assigned task, inform me privately as soon as possible.

If you have any questions or concerns with this plan, voice them now.

Balewin Duckmane
Viscount of Kamade, Marshal of the Fissoa Privateers

Chenier

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #4: August 17, 2011, 08:38:35 PM »
The issue is not clear-cut, imo, because it is a threat that *another* *might* do something, and not an act on itself.

They may be very lenient on how many turns can be missed, and there's no way to know.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 09:59:14 PM by Chénier »
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Anaris

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #5: August 17, 2011, 08:45:07 PM »
No, it doesn't matter how lenient they might be.  They might just be bluffing, and have no intention of actually fining anyone at all.

None of that matters.  What matters is that someone ordered people to do things every day, and told them that they would be punished if they didn't. 

This is about as clear-cut a case of Inalienable Rights abuse as I've seen.
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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #6: August 17, 2011, 08:47:32 PM »
I think the key phrase in there is "actively hampers". Meaning if you do nothing (because of inactivity or otherwise), you aren't setting out to hamper efforts to take over the region, but you're not aiding them either. From what I gather, fines will be given to those people hanging peasants

Anaris

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #7: August 17, 2011, 08:52:17 PM »
"Failure to regularly provide a report on a daily basis will also be considered dereliction of duty"

That line there is enough to warrant at least a stern lecture on the Inalienable Rights.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #8: August 17, 2011, 08:56:39 PM »
Ordering daily reports is a rather serious thing in terms of the Inalienable Rights. The only possible way to follow such an order is to log on daily in direct contradiction to the player's right to or not to play.
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Indirik

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #9: August 17, 2011, 09:19:04 PM »
The issue is not clear-cut, imo, because it is a threat that *another* *might* do something, and not an act on itself.

They may be very lenient on how many turns can be missed, and there's no way to know.
This same line of reasoning can be used to argue that it's OK for a duke to say "Don't go to the tournament or the judge will fine you". After all, it's just the duke that's talking, not the judge. The duke can't fine anyone. And the judge hasn't fined anyone. And no one has acted on the threat at all. And besides, they may be lenient on not fine anyone at all. So therefore it's OK, right?
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Huntsmaster

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #10: August 17, 2011, 09:21:41 PM »
"Failure to regularly provide a report on a daily basis will also be considered dereliction of duty"

That line there is enough to warrant at least a stern lecture on the Inalienable Rights.

Why? As above, you need to consider the rest of the sentence:

Quote
... and may result in fines, but it will take a lot of time for that to happen.

It's not as if the Marshal is threatening to fine if you miss one day's worth of reports, which would be forcing you to log in once a day to avoid the fine. He's considering IC that failing to provide a report is a "dereliction of duty". This obviously could occur even if you log in every day, and specifically will not immediately result in punishment.
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Anaris

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #11: August 17, 2011, 09:30:08 PM »
Why? As above, you need to consider the rest of the sentence:

This is why:

Quote
How should someone in a position of power treat these rights? By acknowledging and moving on. Almost all long-winded texts are just sophisticated attempts to circumvent them. The basic rule is: Just shut up and stay 100 feet away from any and all inalienable rights, no matter how well-meaning you are. Some of the worst events of both human history and in BattleMaster were done by people with good intentions.

Please reread that entire page to be quite clear on why even what he said is not acceptable.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Chenier

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #12: August 17, 2011, 09:58:01 PM »
"Failure to regularly provide a report on a daily basis will also be considered dereliction of duty"

That line there is enough to warrant at least a stern lecture on the Inalienable Rights.

What I meant is that we don't know if something sterner is in order. Has anyone been punished? Is the player of the judge also backing these instructions up, meaning he would also need such a lecture?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 10:01:23 PM by Chénier »
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Indirik

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #13: August 17, 2011, 10:08:36 PM »
Has anyone been punished?
That's irrelevant. Punishment or action upon a threat is not required in order for a statement to be considered a violation of the rules. The fact that the threat was given may have caused someone to modify their play patterns to avoid the possibility of punishment.
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Shizzle

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Re: Threats of reprimand due to playing speed
« Reply #14: August 17, 2011, 10:13:22 PM »
I think the key phrase in there is "actively hampers". Meaning if you do nothing (because of inactivity or otherwise), you aren't setting out to hamper efforts to take over the region, but you're not aiding them either. From what I gather, fines will be given to those people hanging peasants

"Actively hampers" is indeed a key feature here. The whole reason the Marshal sent this letter is because TL managed to get stats down (even more) because of unwarranted hanging. At least to me, it was clear that the Marshal sent this to make clear that such behavior wasn't going to be tolerated again from the nobles. Not from the players, but from the nobles. I'm pretty sure the "but it will take a lot of time for that to happen" part can be interpreted in it's most broad meaning.

Is it so wrong for a Marshal to ask this of his bannermen?  As long as the difference between OOC and IC is clear, I see no problem in roleplaying a strict marshal.

Then again, the IAR page clearly warns to steer clear, and for good reason.

So my conclusion would be that the player is found guilty, though without bad intent. Punishment: copy the IAR page 500 times by hand :P

I'm no Magistrate, though :)