Author Topic: Religions  (Read 42182 times)

Chenier

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Re: Religions
« Reply #60: March 14, 2011, 06:26:43 PM »
Oh boy, without getting into mean talk, I'll simply say thus:

I am quite interested in improving BM, but I do so via methods that stand a chance of working. Crying out about it, insulting people, does not help the process.

No, you are discrediting ideas that aim at correcting what is generally agreed upon (that religions are not what they could and ought to be) by ignoring obvious trends and the limited successes of those who tried what you preach (many fun and interesting religions were created over time, yet you don't see them representing a meaningful share of the existing religions).

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So if it turns out that a supremely boring and contentless religion can be sustained for many years, and there are no shenanigans about, then what exactly is the issue?

I was going to rephrase this, but it can't be any more painlessly obvious. You said it quite clearly: you don't care if boring entities take up all the space and prevent interesting ones from taking over.

You pretend to want to improve things, while discrediting every suggestion to actually make it so. You sound like the government talking about the environment.
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Ender

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Re: Religions
« Reply #61: March 14, 2011, 06:53:57 PM »
@Ender: Which religion did you found/lead?

The Trinity of the Far East. I founded it as a splinter of the Trinity from the Colonies, but honestly spent most of my time in the Far East taking the core concept of the Trinity and trying to develop it into something different.

Indirik

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Re: Religions
« Reply #62: March 14, 2011, 07:33:26 PM »
To force religions to have content will make the hollow ones much less competitive.

I highly dispute that assertion. All you will force people to do is generate reams of boilerplate crap that they then ignore. You cannot force the generation of content. Nor can you force involvement.

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Therefore, the more interesting ones will more easily flourish. They will then have the power they need to create interesting events and situations in the game. Time has told us that the status quo favorises the bland religions that add absolutely nothing to the game, that even reduce the fun factor by undermining the atmosphere.

I disagree with your opening statement, and agree with your closing statement. :)

It doesn't matter how many reams of theological mumbo-jumbo you write. The vast majority of your noble converts won't ever read it, even if they know that it exists.

If you're bad at attracting and holding interest, your religion will fail. You can get that interest many ways.

  • You can position your religion as a tool of the state. Nothing wrong with that. It's even a bit historically accurate in some cases, isn't it? But this will cause you problems as you attempt to expand outside the parent realm.
  • You can attempt to differentiate yourself from the realm structure. Your success at that point can depend on your realm's permissiveness. Some are very permissive, some will burn down your temple instantly.
  • You can differentiate yourself from the other religions in the area. Take a stance for or against them.
  • Take a stance on something. Don't be the usual BattleMaster-standard "live and let live" religion. You need something to fire up the congregation. Get them involved and interested in doing something. A rich and vibrant theology (i.e. reams of crap on the wiki) will not get people interested in your religion. The in-game speech you give about the Evils of Keplerism will get people interested.
  • Go for the top. Get the leaders of your realm, and hopefully other realms, interested in your faith. This is the key to power in religion. Covering the bigwigs in the political community to your faith. No matter what you do, if you have no influence in the political sphere, your religion will be marginally influential, at best.

Also, perhaps one of the most important factors of the success of the religion is who founds it, and who runs it. To take up a theme I used earlier, it doesn't matter how many reams of crap... err... theology... you write, if other characters don't like your character, your religion will be a failure. You need a popular, well-liked character. And he needs to be able to attract other popular, well-liked characters. I think this is something that a lot of people forget.
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Ender

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Re: Religions
« Reply #63: March 14, 2011, 08:57:46 PM »
Also, perhaps one of the most important factors of the success of the religion is who founds it, and who runs it. To take up a theme I used earlier, it doesn't matter how many reams of crap... err... theology... you write, if other characters don't like your character, your religion will be a failure. You need a popular, well-liked character. And he needs to be able to attract other popular, well-liked characters. I think this is something that a lot of people forget.

All of what you wrote makes sense (and is great advice by the way), though this one in particular struck me. My character who led the church was not always a particularly popular character since I played him that way on purpose, and I bet that could have had a negative impact on growth.

Indirik

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Re: Religions
« Reply #64: March 14, 2011, 09:19:24 PM »
The religion game is highly interactive between player characters. From the very beginning you have to convince people to join you. The only tool you have is a text-based message. If your character is grumpy and insulting, or you have a bad reputation from past actions, how do you expect to convince them to support your cause? Your family history counts here, too. People will tend to not interact with a family with which they have a past bad experience.

But if you can sell ice to an Eskimo, you'll probably do very well at the religion game.
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wraith

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Re: Religions
« Reply #65: March 14, 2011, 09:27:14 PM »
One simple option to raise the profile of religion is to append a character's religion and their position in it to their message signature..

Severn Da Hadez
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I like the idea of having optional commandments similar to realm laws with a chance of getting caught breaking them dependant on the number of followers/temples/priests in the region. You would be reported to the Elders of the religion for transgressions. Priests could have a 'conduct inquisition' option where they have a higher chance of spotting transgressions occurring that day in the region.

Commandments could include things like resting on certain days, not duelling, not performing certain types of looting, not evading or retreating from battle and so on.

Nobles would have a 'piety' statistic. Religious elders would have a limited amount of marks (say 1 per member per week) with which to reward or punish members. The effects of good or bad marks on piety score would be related to how strict the religion is, making it easier for members to gain/lose prestige the stricter the religion's commandments are. Moving above or below certain piety thresholds would have honour/prestige effects for the noble

There is no reason the religion could not enforce additional commandments/requirements outside game mechanics though there would be no automatic reporting for those.

This would give players a tangible stake in their choice of religion and their adherence to it as well as adding depth to the religion and adding more potential for interaction between elders and members. It would also add another click-able thing for priests to do.

This could be added incrementally to the game (maybe add the piety system first then add mechanics for commandments),

« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 09:28:48 PM by wraith »
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Indirik

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Re: Religions
« Reply #66: March 14, 2011, 09:30:53 PM »
One simple option to raise the profile of religion is to append a character's religion and their position in it to their message signature..

Severn Da Hadez
Count of Eurotan, Marshal of the Northern Guard, Sigrid's Warrior of Darkanism
This would force nobles to disclose their religious status. From what I understand, this is intentionally not public information for anyone but priests and lords.
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Ender

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Re: Religions
« Reply #67: March 14, 2011, 09:39:56 PM »
What is the official reason why we would want to avoid public disclosure of religious preference?

vonGenf

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Re: Religions
« Reply #68: March 14, 2011, 09:51:59 PM »
What is the official reason why we would want to avoid public disclosure of religious preference?

I'm guessing because religions like the Blood Cult and the Chaos Requiem actually add to the game experience, and this would be their death warrant.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Ender

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Re: Religions
« Reply #69: March 14, 2011, 09:55:11 PM »
I'm guessing because religions like the Blood Cult and the Chaos Requiem actually add to the game experience, and this would be their death warrant.

Good point!  ;D

Though it would be interesting as an optional feature. Though I have no clue if its possible to implement something like that.

Geronus

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Re: Religions
« Reply #70: March 14, 2011, 11:04:22 PM »
I think a huge part of the success or failure of religions depends on their ability to make players invest in them in some way shape or form. Many of Indirik's suggestions are excellent in that regard. Stand for something! I for one refuse to join religions with no purpose and no agenda, which include most "state" religions.

Indirik

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Re: Religions
« Reply #71: March 14, 2011, 11:55:22 PM »
Though it would be interesting as an optional feature. Though I have no clue if its possible to implement something like that.

"variable signatures" is something that is often brought up. Some way to choose how your message is signed, perhaps on a case-by-case basis. I can see how this would be useful, especially in a theocracy. You might want your religious title used if you are addressing the realm on a matter of religious authority, but use a Marshal title when sending order to your army.

I'm pretty sure this one has routinely been turned down.
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Indirik

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Re: Religions
« Reply #72: March 14, 2011, 11:58:47 PM »
I'm guessing because religions like the Blood Cult and the Chaos Requiem actually add to the game experience, and this would be their death warrant.

Yes, that's pretty much it. Not only that, but it would severely hamper the spread of certain religions in regions where they would be unwelcome. Like Sanguis Astroism in Caerwyn or Madina. Church of Ibladesh in Perdan. Flow of the Balance in Sirion. Darkanism in Tara. I'm sure you can fill in many other religion/realm pairs.

Making it harder for religions to spread is really not a good idea.

And if you want to be proud of your religious faith and advertise it, you can always type a signature yourself in your messages.
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Ender

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Re: Religions
« Reply #73: March 15, 2011, 01:45:28 AM »
"variable signatures" is something that is often brought up. Some way to choose how your message is signed, perhaps on a case-by-case basis. I can see how this would be useful, especially in a theocracy. You might want your religious title used if you are addressing the realm on a matter of religious authority, but use a Marshal title when sending order to your army.

I'm pretty sure this one has routinely been turned down.

Though I like the idea, I can see why if it is a pain from the design perspective. Even if it wasnt, there are more important features to add aside from variable signatures I'd say.

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Re: Religions
« Reply #74: March 15, 2011, 01:52:04 AM »
If anything, wouldn't we want to make this game less complex? Already there have been so many new features that it's no wonder new players might find this game hard to get into.

I am of the firm opinion that we shouldn't fix things that aren't broken, nor add legs to snakes (Comes from a Chinese saying the snake legs part). What exactly is so frightfully lacking in the current religion system? I see that SA remains fairly successful, and in fact has become more or less the definition of northern Dwilight. Is that an exception? Who knows. Same as in the real world, I guess. There's a ton of mediocrity and the truly exceptional stuff is rare.