Author Topic: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)  (Read 57650 times)

Vellos

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #150: October 07, 2011, 08:54:31 PM »
Well,  Asylon was a colony of Caerwyn, and according to the treaty should inherit its claims. ;)

Depends on your interpretation of the legalese.

"In the event of a secession from one of the signing realms, the new realm (or Child Realm) is considered to have the same Legal Claims as their Parent Realm (the realm they seceded from), until such a time as this treaty is rewritten."

Technically, Asylon was formed before this treaty. Since then, Caerwyn has had a secession... two, in fact. Via to Asylon and Itaulond. Presumably the duchy of Via would have claim to its own regions (which accompanied it) and the duchy of Itau would be the legal successor to its own regions (which accompanied it). Caerwyn could turn over legal claims to Asylon, if Caerwyn still existed. But, in its demise, to my knowledge, it never formally transfered legal claims.

Thus, while this treaty does not establish a clear definition of what to do with claims in the event of a realm's destruction, it does establish a few principles which I shall refer to as "Nonexpansion," "Entity, and "Heritability."

Nonexpansion- Even in the event of secessions and region revolts, claims do not change. The treaty is evidently framed to prevent "claim creep" wherein one realm gradually secures more and more claims. It is an inflexible claim regime.

Heritability- Claims are passed down to succeeding constituent entities. Caerwyn's claims would be assumed by successor states, meaning the Duchy of Via but, probably more properly, Itaulond. Itaulond probably has the strongest claim to Caerwyn's share of the treaty.

Entity- Claims can evidently be traded and exchanged, meaning they are not to be regarded as inalienable.

Under nonexpansion, Asylon would clearly have an issue: they are clearly engaging in "claim creep," presuming to claim even lands directly under Terran's influence which they can never hope to control. Under heritability, Asylon never formally become Caerwyn's heir. But, the best they can reasonably hope for is that they can claim the Duchy of Via legally, while Itaulond gets the Duchy of Itau, and other regions become "free lands." This is the strongest argument for Asylon's claims. A different interpretation of the treaty would suggest that Itau maintains claims to all lands Caerwyn ever claimed, as it is the only "Child Realm," and Via's allegiance change could threaten Nonexpansion. Under Entity, we could regard claims as being "fiat assets," whereby the destruction of their holding entity (namely, Caerwyn) would destroy the asset as well, so that all of Caerwyn's lands, even in the Duchy of Via and Itaulond, would technically be "free lands" under the treaty, though obviously not under any practical assessment.
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Glaumring the Fox

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #151: October 07, 2011, 09:02:44 PM »
Bah! Might makes right!

And you guys must know that we are being tongue and cheek about these claims. I of course still stand by my claim to everything north of Asylon in corridor fashion all the way back to the Storms keep though... 8)
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Chenier

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #152: October 07, 2011, 11:59:57 PM »
Bah! Might makes right!

And you guys must know that we are being tongue and cheek about these claims. I of course still stand by my claim to everything north of Asylon in corridor fashion all the way back to the Storms keep though... 8)

Considering you didn't respect your initial agreements with Caerwyn, I don't see anyone rushing in to defend your claims now. Which, in the end, is all that really matters. You can claim half the continent if you want (Evergard did, however you spell that). But if you can't defend your claims, and others don't recognize it, it's not worth anything.
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Geronus

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #153: October 08, 2011, 04:27:15 AM »
Considering you didn't respect your initial agreements with Caerwyn, I don't see anyone rushing in to defend your claims now. Which, in the end, is all that really matters. You can claim half the continent if you want (Evergard did, however you spell that). But if you can't defend your claims, and others don't recognize it, it's not worth anything.

You know what has always surprised me? Everyone always throws Springdale's destruction in SA's face, but no one ever mentions Everguard... Talk about an unloved realm. I mean Astrum pretty much mugged them in broad daylight, and no one said a word. It's like they never existed.

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #154: October 08, 2011, 04:36:41 AM »
You know what has always surprised me? Everyone always throws Springdale's destruction in SA's face, but no one ever mentions Everguard... Talk about an unloved realm. I mean Astrum pretty much mugged them in broad daylight, and no one said a word. It's like they never existed.

True that, I remember when we both arrived in Shrine of Seeklander at the same time and they managed to start the TO first by seconds. So Astrum declared war and claimed it for food for, even though Everguard offered to trade us food.
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Chenier

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #155: October 08, 2011, 05:39:43 AM »
You know what has always surprised me? Everyone always throws Springdale's destruction in SA's face, but no one ever mentions Everguard... Talk about an unloved realm. I mean Astrum pretty much mugged them in broad daylight, and no one said a word. It's like they never existed.

Caerwyn was pretty much founded *because* of Everguard. We wouldn't have admited it at the time, but all us Taselak players from the SEI that had just sunk could just not tolerate Toren getting themselves a big chunk of Dwilight. It would have been too much of an insult, considering how extremely poorly we had viewed that realm back on the SEI. That we started out in Eidulb, quite close to them, was far from a coincidence. But due to not having a ruler in five days, and I think bugs were involved, when they threatened us we just didn't have the ability to resist as we didn't yet have a council or a duke, so instead of dying before we managed to set ourselves up, we moved to Golden Farrow.

Nobody ever liked Everguard. They were arrogrant, claiming ALL of western dwilight, trying to bully everyone who would set up there, so they were neither liked by the old Taselak migrants, nor by the people in Springdale from which they left, nor by their SA neighours because of their religious supremacy ideology.

While there were those in Caerwyn that supported helping Everguard in the end, considering SA the greater enemy, the deep dislike of the torenites and of their forcing Caerwyn to move their capital was too much to forgive. Many in Caerwyn were quite happy to see Astrum kill Everguard.
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Geronus

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #156: October 08, 2011, 06:15:53 AM »
While there were those in Caerwyn that supported helping Everguard in the end, considering SA the greater enemy, the deep dislike of the torenites and of their forcing Caerwyn to move their capital was too much to forgive. Many in Caerwyn were quite happy to see Astrum kill Everguard.

Now that I find interesting. Astrum wasn't very big then, consisting of all of 8 regions, and I never had an inkling that Caerwyn considered SA a potential threat that far back. As I recall, Caerwyn even offered to send an army north to help us finish Everguard off... Relations were always amicable, so much so that Rowan was quite surprised when Baal started saber rattling out of the blue.

Chenier

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #157: October 08, 2011, 06:27:08 AM »
Now that I find interesting. Astrum wasn't very big then, consisting of all of 8 regions, and I never had an inkling that Caerwyn considered SA a potential threat that far back. As I recall, Caerwyn even offered to send an army north to help us finish Everguard off... Relations were always amicable, so much so that Rowan was quite surprised when Baal started saber rattling out of the blue.

Those of us that came from Springdale were influential, and the deep hatred we grew for SA as we saw our mother realm crumble to it seemed to have been rather contagious.

Caerwyn has never allowed SA to preach. The stance had always been: "If we let them in, we'll eventually crumble like Springdale did, as SA is a cancer that rots you out from within".

But yea, we *really* didn't like 'em torenites.  8)
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Vellos

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #158: October 09, 2011, 02:48:07 AM »

Caerwyn has never allowed SA to preach. The stance had always been: "If we let them in, we'll eventually crumble like Springdale did, as SA is a cancer that rots you out from within".


Which is why Terran failed, and Caerwyn succeeded.

errr.... woops!
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Chenier

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #159: October 09, 2011, 02:50:19 AM »
Which is why Terran failed, and Caerwyn succeeded.

errr.... woops!

I remember the early days of Terran... man, we almost went to whoop their asses.

Mind you, Terran has changed *a lot* since its founding.

Caerwyn just got reckless. Makes me sad to see it gone. :(
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Geronus

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #160: October 09, 2011, 06:04:00 AM »
I remember the early days of Terran... man, we almost went to whoop their asses.

Mind you, Terran has changed *a lot* since its founding.

Caerwyn just got reckless. Makes me sad to see it gone. :(

Reckless... That's one word for it.

Chenier

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #161: October 09, 2011, 06:53:44 AM »
Reckless... That's one word for it.

I told 'em not to do it! I did!

Then I told them to seek a ceasefire! To seek mediation!

I think they had just gotten bored and wanted to fight...  :'(
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BarticaBoat

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #162: October 09, 2011, 07:18:56 AM »
You know what has always surprised me? Everyone always throws Springdale's destruction in SA's face, but no one ever mentions Everguard... Talk about an unloved realm. I mean Astrum pretty much mugged them in broad daylight, and no one said a word. It's like they never existed.

That was always so depressing...

we didn't make friends, but if i remember right we existed in the wilderness before the monster hordes were tuned down so we kinda got the bad end of it

it's okay though, we would grow in the spring and summer, gear up in fall, then brace for the winter hordes... made for some epic rp and we were actually winning with no foreign support just good tactics. until astrum strolled by, took ammando saying we couldn't feed the people (we had decent surpluses back then...) and then it went downhill pretty quickly. winter hit, we didn't have enough food, yeah.

i regret nothing. everguard was glorious, and the first realm to see the western end of dwilight.

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #163: October 09, 2011, 10:32:02 PM »
You know what has always surprised me? Everyone always throws Springdale's destruction in SA's face, but no one ever mentions Everguard... Talk about an unloved realm. I mean Astrum pretty much mugged them in broad daylight, and no one said a word. It's like they never existed.

Only thing I remember about Everguard was that Arylon guy. If anyone ever needed to give anyone a definition of self-adulation I could just copy them a link to this guy's family pages.
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Vellos

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Re: Veinsormoot (Split from Luria Nova thread)
« Reply #164: October 10, 2011, 07:04:08 AM »
I remember the early days of Terran... man, we almost went to whoop their asses.

Mind you, Terran has changed *a lot* since its founding.

Not almost. You did. It's why we never liked Caerwyn. Caerwyn torched Saffalore.

And... yeah... I know Terran has changed a lot since its founding. I've been there the whole time. ;)
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