Author Topic: The Enweil/Riombara thread  (Read 54857 times)

Lefanis

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #30: June 05, 2012, 07:30:48 PM »
In general, it's always people up to no good who've been the ones that don't like the voting and try to bypass it, like Mordred and Hvrek. This makes Evander like all that voting much more than he would normally be inclined to, as he's seen what happens when people disregard it.
Au contraire. I have no idea about Hvrek, but Mordred was in power thanks to the electoral process. If he'd been a monarch, he would have faced rebellion in RoF. He never seized power, whenever he got it, it was through elections (except for the rebellion in RoF). In Riombara, he was elected to multiple positions, posts he would never have attained if Delvin had appointed posts instead of conducting elections. Mordred welcomed elections, for he knew that he would win most of them through political machinations. It also allowed him the liberty to have his hand in all the pies, and influence all the decisions that were chosen by referendum. He was worried when there were people taking unilateral decisions, which he couldn't impact unless the person making them was his lackey.

It's a simple technique, known and used by those in power all over the world. Give the people the illusion of control in the form of elections, and legitimise the actions you take. A tyrant who rules with an iron first will will swiftly be rebelled against, but a ruler who is elected periodically and takes similar decisions is seen to have popular support. I've always felt republics were way more stable than monarchies, just because people feel they are being represented. Of course, larger the realm, the easier to control.
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Geronus

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #31: June 05, 2012, 07:48:03 PM »
Au contraire. I have no idea about Hvrek, but Mordred was in power thanks to the electoral process. If he'd been a monarch, he would have faced rebellion in RoF. He never seized power, whenever he got it, it was through elections (except for the rebellion in RoF). In Riombara, he was elected to multiple positions, posts he would never have attained if Delvin had appointed posts instead of conducting elections. Mordred welcomed elections, for he knew that he would win most of them through political machinations. It also allowed him the liberty to have his hand in all the pies, and influence all the decisions that were chosen by referendum. He was worried when there were people taking unilateral decisions, which he couldn't impact unless the person making them was his lackey.

It's a simple technique, known and used by those in power all over the world. Give the people the illusion of control in the form of elections, and legitimise the actions you take. A tyrant who rules with an iron first will will swiftly be rebelled against, but a ruler who is elected periodically and takes similar decisions is seen to have popular support. I've always felt republics were way more stable than monarchies, just because people feel they are being represented. Of course, larger the realm, the easier to control.

Well, OOC I agree with you. Evander on the other hand sees it differently.

All the people who have scorned the system in Riombara have generally been up to no good, namely Mordred and Hvrek. Mordred went around the system via sedition after his proposal to ally with the monsters was democratically defeated, and in any case his dislike of Riombara's large number of votes was quite openly expressed. Hvrek on the other hand just ignored the system and did what he wanted until we realized what he was doing, and then he seceded Fwuvoghor and ended up getting it lost to the daimons.

Besides all that, electoral systems can only be gamed if the voters let them get away with it. Hvrek, for example, was elected because no one ran against him.

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #32: June 05, 2012, 10:54:57 PM »
Well, OOC I agree with you. Evander on the other hand sees it differently.

All the people who have scorned the system in Riombara have generally been up to no good, namely Mordred and Hvrek. Mordred went around the system via sedition after his proposal to ally with the monsters was democratically defeated, and in any case his dislike of Riombara's large number of votes was quite openly expressed. Hvrek on the other hand just ignored the system and did what he wanted until we realized what he was doing, and then he seceded Fwuvoghor and ended up getting it lost to the daimons.

Besides all that, electoral systems can only be gamed if the voters let them get away with it. Hvrek, for example, was elected because no one ran against him.

Or a clan jumps in and forces the vote through hive mind play... thought that's off topic...

mikm

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #33: June 05, 2012, 11:09:49 PM »
Riombara was also down to one duchy during the 4th invasion. They had only Grehk and were surrounded by monster militia. They hadn't the forces to fight off the monsters in order to expand and get food to the people of their capital.

I was General of Enweil at the time and found it in our hearts to save humanity rather than watch our oldest enemy die. We came down and fought together against those militia hoards. We saved Riombara from destruction - when the Meridian Republic would do nothing to help them.
I remember that. Read their letters promising help. Never came.

Telrunya

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #34: June 05, 2012, 11:15:35 PM »
Not sure if MR ever promised aid, just not to attack Riombara. MR did try to poke the Monsters away from Riombara though, like getting them to not burn down Athol Margos. They probably did play a part in Riombara's survival.

Not sure what Mordred all said though :P

mikm

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #35: June 05, 2012, 11:23:35 PM »
It was kind of a promise. The way things were going I belive the daimons would have won and trapled Meridian republic along with its monster friends.
Had the archons not come that is.

Geronus

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #36: June 06, 2012, 10:29:36 PM »
Random question, does anyone recall who the Duke of Grehk was during the Fourth Invasion? I cannot for the life of me remember, and now it's bothering me.

Arrakis

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #37: June 07, 2012, 12:00:22 AM »
Vanidor Beals I think?
Gregorian (Eponllyn), Baudouin (Cathay), Thaddeus (Cathay), Leopold (Niselur)

Telrunya

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #38: June 07, 2012, 12:20:51 AM »
Was something beginning with that for sure at least.

Geronus

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #39: June 07, 2012, 01:11:30 AM »
Vanidor Beals I think?

THANK you. That is definitely it. It was driving me nuts...

Chenier

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #40: June 15, 2012, 12:55:49 PM »
The Hetman is Supreme Chancellor.

Reunification is complete. :)
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Chenier

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #41: June 25, 2012, 08:31:06 PM »
What infils? And what armies? I think the one battle was basically a miscommunication if I remember right, and happened mostly because someone refused to increase relations. I don't recall any infil attacks at all. Whatever happened, it wasn't realm policy.

Also, you're forgetting how Old Grehk assaulted Vozzessdor after the daimons had already shown up. And how they tried to pull a fast one by taking Wudenkin while Fronen was sending armies south to help Enweil and Riombara.

The infils I spoke about only like 1000 times. It's not because you can't bother to remember what your own realm did against us that it didn't exist. As for the battle, it was hardly miscommunication: you declared war on Enweil and then marched on them the turn after or so. It wasn't refusal of improving relations, it was Riombara declaring war on Enweil. When a realm declares war on another and then the whole army marches to destroy the troops performing a takeover in the adjacent region, I call that realm policy.

Old Grehk's attack, while reproachable, was done before global alliances. At the time, even Riombara didn't want to know squat about peace, so it doesn't make you look any better.
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Geronus

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #42: June 26, 2012, 03:25:02 PM »
The infils I spoke about only like 1000 times. It's not because you can't bother to remember what your own realm did against us that it didn't exist. As for the battle, it was hardly miscommunication: you declared war on Enweil and then marched on them the turn after or so. It wasn't refusal of improving relations, it was Riombara declaring war on Enweil. When a realm declares war on another and then the whole army marches to destroy the troops performing a takeover in the adjacent region, I call that realm policy.

Old Grehk's attack, while reproachable, was done before global alliances. At the time, even Riombara didn't want to know squat about peace, so it doesn't make you look any better.

Speaking about it 1000 times doesn't make it any more true. And if it really happened, it just goes to show a) That it wasn't realm policy, or else we'd probably have a more clear memory of it, and b) That we've become so inured to your constant harping that we are inclined to just assume that any accusations you make are either exaggerated or outright fabricated. We weren't at war with Enweil, for example. Hvrek lowered relations to peace or neutral and then someone had aggressive settings. That's what triggered the battle if I recall.

Honestly Riombara doesn't give a crap about this stuff right now. We have big boy problems and we are doing all of the heavy lifting to liberate the South, including your cities thank you very much. You should be praying for our success, otherwise you can kiss Fengen and Enweilios goodbye for good. A fair chunk of our leadership doesn't have a problem with Enweil and would have been happy to work more closely with you, but your attitude pretty much guaranteed that wouldn't happen. And won't happen. We'd have been happy to help Enweil reclaim a city after the daimons are dealt with, but considering that you're currently trying to blackmail us into doing so we probably won't unless the exile of the Chenier family from Enweil is one of the conditions of our aid.

Tan dSerrai

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #43: June 26, 2012, 04:45:21 PM »
Ah, another attempt:

Truth:
Enweil did surrender to the daimons (somewhat understandably). This led to relations being lowered. The only one declaring war was IVF - against Riombara (note - this was the only human-human war declaration during the whole of the invasion). In fact, for most of the time during which Enweil had surrendered we had good (informal) relations to them.

Now, due to wrong settings one (small) battle was fought between Enweil/IVF and Riombara. It was not intended from our side - wether you believe that or not.

What /is/ important is that you have been harping about this one, single fight umpteen times now, it comes up again and again at every possible and impossible oportunity. Aye, it happened - but please tell me how many enweilian troops where lost. And then tell me how many riombaran troops were lost directly aiding Enweil. Then put those two in relation. I estimate 2-4000 enweilian troops lost. And around 70.000 riombaran troops lost directly aiding Enweil. Truly, we have been an insidious enemy. What makes us even more dangerous is that we never did ask for anything in return. Must be an evil pln there /somewhere/, right?  ::)

I would be honestly interested (player to player) what Guillaume /wants/? Does he truely believe this stuff or does he simply want to create hostility between Riombara and Enweil?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 04:49:22 PM by Tan_Serrai »

Chenier

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Re: The Enweil/Riombara thread
« Reply #44: June 26, 2012, 11:25:35 PM »
Speaking about it 1000 times doesn't make it any more true. And if it really happened, it just goes to show a) That it wasn't realm policy, or else we'd probably have a more clear memory of it, and b) That we've become so inured to your constant harping that we are inclined to just assume that any accusations you make are either exaggerated or outright fabricated. We weren't at war with Enweil, for example. Hvrek lowered relations to peace or neutral and then someone had aggressive settings. That's what triggered the battle if I recall.

Honestly Riombara doesn't give a crap about this stuff right now. We have big boy problems and we are doing all of the heavy lifting to liberate the South, including your cities thank you very much. You should be praying for our success, otherwise you can kiss Fengen and Enweilios goodbye for good. A fair chunk of our leadership doesn't have a problem with Enweil and would have been happy to work more closely with you, but your attitude pretty much guaranteed that wouldn't happen. And won't happen. We'd have been happy to help Enweil reclaim a city after the daimons are dealt with, but considering that you're currently trying to blackmail us into doing so we probably won't unless the exile of the Chenier family from Enweil is one of the conditions of our aid.

You remember atrociously wrong and accuse me, OOC, of being a liar.

The infil attacks were real. Riombara DID declare WAR on Enweil (pretexting that since Fheuv'n declared war on Rio and that Fheuv'n and Enweil were the same, it was all good).

Also, Guillaume offered to leave Enweil. He's offering Riombara everything you ever wanted. All he's asking is that you don't attack Enweil without provocation for the umpteenth time.

Ah, another attempt:

Truth:
Enweil did surrender to the daimons (somewhat understandably). This led to relations being lowered. The only one declaring war was IVF - against Riombara (note - this was the only human-human war declaration during the whole of the invasion). In fact, for most of the time during which Enweil had surrendered we had good (informal) relations to them.

Now, due to wrong settings one (small) battle was fought between Enweil/IVF and Riombara. It was not intended from our side - wether you believe that or not.

What /is/ important is that you have been harping about this one, single fight umpteen times now, it comes up again and again at every possible and impossible oportunity. Aye, it happened - but please tell me how many enweilian troops where lost. And then tell me how many riombaran troops were lost directly aiding Enweil. Then put those two in relation. I estimate 2-4000 enweilian troops lost. And around 70.000 riombaran troops lost directly aiding Enweil. Truly, we have been an insidious enemy. What makes us even more dangerous is that we never did ask for anything in return. Must be an evil pln there /somewhere/, right?  ::)

I would be honestly interested (player to player) what Guillaume /wants/? Does he truely believe this stuff or does he simply want to create hostility between Riombara and Enweil?

The attack on Enweil, if not intended, resulted from criminal negligence. If there are protesters on the street, and I chose to close my eyes and end up driving them all over, I don't get to say "I never intended to kill all of these protesters!" The attack followed a declaration of war, and was made on a region occupied by the remnants of Enweil's forces who were showin no signs of retreat (they were doing a takeover). Indeed, I believer there was chatter on the ruler channel where Riombara contested Enweil's right to Lopa, further making it an obvious and intentional attack. Did everyone who marched know all of the facts? No, sure. However, a simple scout report, combined with the lowering of relations would have made any reasonable person suspicious. It was blatantly obvious that you weren't being ordered to help Enweil with their takeover of Lopa.

How many Enweilian troops did you kill? How about: everything they had left while they had no more capital left to recruit more from? Riombara's "aid to Enweil" were attacks against the daimons. Enweil and Fheuvenem can claim to have lost just as many people to "directly defend Riombara". The aid that was sent was the minimum: Unlike the North who took many risks to defend each other, Riombara never took a risk knowingly (well, they knew of the risks when they came to harass Fheuv'n but they chose to disbelieve them). They gave up on Enweil when there was still hope, and showed no rush to ever send troops. Yes, they did send help. But it was not out of selflessness, but rather for personal interests and for PR. Riombara was quite happy to see Enweil burn (again).

I was the ruler of Fheuv'n for all of its existence, up to right before it got crushed. Not my fault if Riombaran rulers tend to keep a lot of things from their subjects...
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