Author Topic: Spells Feedback  (Read 51130 times)

James

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #15: August 26, 2011, 10:15:17 PM »
BS.

No it's not.

As I said, it's who knows how to use them best, and by that I do not mean the effects, as you say, they are fixed for each spell. I mean by which spell to use when. Someone with vast amounts of spells might get carried away and cast spells that make them tired very quickly meaning the other person, with just a dozen or so spells, could take advantage of the situation.

The one who has the most spells may well have a huge advantage but only if they know how/when to use them properly. Someone with a vast quantity of spells who does not know how to use them best will probably find having so many options a hindrance rather than a help.

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I think the problem here isn't just that someone who comes along later will have fewer spells because it's a younger character.  The problem is that the people here right now have the chance to research lots of basic spells, spells that are simple and obvious, but that haven't been laid out by the GMs from the start.  They get to make them up, and then their characters know them.

The spells being done now, before the game starts properly are, as far as I'm aware, going to be kept in the game but the characters will not necessarily keep knowledge of each one once we go active.

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When people come along later, they will not be able to research these basic spells, because once one person has created Fireball, no one else can ever learn a Fireball spell except from them! (or, obviously, in a chain leading back to them)

As has been stated elsewhere, if/when Councils are up and running, if they take similar form to the past the keep their own grimoires which are made available to all members of the Council (possibly split at different levels). So a new player,  if they joined a Council, would have most of the basic spells made available to them through that.

This isn't a game about people spending most of their time away from other SpellCasters, there should be lots of interactions and opportunities for trade/teaching/learning.

If there do seem to be problems once we're underway, we can look at addressing things, but the basic spells should be relatively easy for people to get hold of once we've been going a while.
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Anaris

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #16: August 26, 2011, 10:33:40 PM »
No it's not.

As I said, it's who knows how to use them best, and by that I do not mean the effects, as you say, they are fixed for each spell. I mean by which spell to use when. Someone with vast amounts of spells might get carried away and cast spells that make them tired very quickly meaning the other person, with just a dozen or so spells, could take advantage of the situation.

The one who has the most spells may well have a huge advantage but only if they know how/when to use them properly. Someone with a vast quantity of spells who does not know how to use them best will probably find having so many options a hindrance rather than a help.

That's a lot like saying, "Well, yeah, your opponents are going to have swords, daggers, and crossbows and you're just going to have a club—but they might be really stupid and not know how to use them, so you should be fine!"
Timothy Collett

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Zakilevo

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #17: August 26, 2011, 10:41:24 PM »
Maybe the person with fewer spells might delved deeper into his spells? Even though both of them have the same fire ball spell, the fewer spell guy might have a stronger fire ball since he spent more hours in the spells?

loren

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #18: August 26, 2011, 10:44:12 PM »
Settle down Tim.  As has been said before we're getting basic spells into the game's database.  A lot of spells have been rejected, and maybe 12 have been activated, and not all of them were set to 'learned'.  It'll be relatively easy to clear a character's spell list, or to set a default list of spells (such as the old grimorie

But James' point is entirely valid.  If someone has a lot of fire or water spells, and the person they're up against has death spells and a few protection spells against fire and water then they'll be able to blast away with a Flesh Rot spell while the other guy is powerless regardless of his huge arsenal.

There was a unity shield that a few characters had in the original SM.  Man was that thing powerful.  Just one spell made a guy on better footing

loren

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #19: August 26, 2011, 10:48:29 PM »
Maybe the person with fewer spells might delved deeper into his spells? Even though both of them have the same fire ball spell, the fewer spell guy might have a stronger fire ball since he spent more hours in the spells?

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Indirik

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #20: August 26, 2011, 10:57:19 PM »
As I said, it's who knows how to use them best, and by that I do not mean the effects, as you say, they are fixed for each spell. I mean by which spell to use when. Someone with vast amounts of spells might get carried away and cast spells that make them tired very quickly meaning the other person, with just a dozen or so spells, could take advantage of the situation.
So you're assertion is that people who are new, and have fewer spells, are smarter than those who have been playing a long time, and have lots of spells. Huh? Someone who has more tools will be more likely to have the right tool for the job. That's why the experienced auto mechanics have huge toolboxes full of hundreds of special purpose tools. When he wants to do something, he grabs the tool specifically designed for that purpose. He doesn't just say "Oh look, a sledgehammer! Woohoo!"

If no one can duplicate a spell except by learning it from the creator, then whoever grabs the Player's Handbook now and starts slapping in the spells is going to have a HUGE advantage, no matter how clever everyone else is. And what happens if that person later goes inactive, or his character dies a fiery death? All those spells are forever lost, and no one else can ever learn Fireball?

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The one who has the most spells may well have a huge advantage but only if they know how/when to use them properly. Someone with a vast quantity of spells who does not know how to use them best will probably find having so many options a hindrance rather than a help.
It seems like you're counting on the scenario where the person who enters all those spells into the system is incompetent. That seems like a flimsy hope on which to base what could be the success/failure of the game.

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The spells being done now, before the game starts properly are, as far as I'm aware, going to be kept in the game but the characters will not necessarily keep knowledge of each one once we go active.
So even if I were to enter a spell now, that doesn't necessarily mean that I will get to use it later? If I can't, who can? I mean, if no one can duplicate it, and I can't use it, then what happens to it?

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If there do seem to be problems once we're underway, we can look at addressing things, but the basic spells should be relatively easy for people to get hold of once we've been going a while.
Perhaps rather than trust that people will be willing to share their secrets, there should be some threshold of difficulty below which spells can be freely duplicated. Anyone with a functioning brain should be able to duplicate the formula for a Light spell. It's only when you start getting into the higher level/more difficult/complex stuff that duplication is restricted.

I don't want to be a doomsayer here in predicting an early death to the game. I'm just trying to understand it, and some of this isn't really making sense to me.
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Indirik

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #21: August 26, 2011, 10:59:50 PM »
Jack of all trades master of none...
Don't be ridiculous. I don't have to "master" a spell to monopolize it. I could enter 500 Death spells right now, and never learn a single one of them, or even bother putting any points in the Death base. But once I've designed the spells, no one else can ever master them, either, because "I own the patents, bizatch!".

So, what is there in the system that prevents someone from doing something like this?
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Zakilevo

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #22: August 26, 2011, 11:03:30 PM »
wait what? you can summit spells now? I thought we haven't launched the game yet.

James

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #23: August 26, 2011, 11:16:35 PM »
wait what? you can summit spells now? I thought we haven't launched the game yet.

We haven't, but we need to get some of the initial Spell base set in place which is why we are asking for submissions now, none of which are you guaranteed to have when the game does actually start.
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loren

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #24: August 26, 2011, 11:18:17 PM »
Don't be ridiculous. I don't have to "master" a spell to monopolize it. I could enter 500 Death spells right now, and never learn a single one of them, or even bother putting any points in the Death base. But once I've designed the spells, no one else can ever master them, either, because "I own the patents, bizatch!".

So, what is there in the system that prevents someone from doing something like this?

The GMs...

loren

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #25: August 26, 2011, 11:21:37 PM »
Don't be ridiculous. I don't have to "master" a spell to monopolize it.[/b].

The point before wasn't about trying to monopolize a spell which is inherently ridiculous, it was about how someone could have a bunch of spells and one person could have gone deep into a particular base and intent and destroy the other person with just a few really powerful spells, or another way of looking at it, their costs go way down and so even though one person has 100 spells to cast they can only do what maybe 20 if they're well rested.

The other person can have 10 and can cast those same to 100 times.

James

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #26: August 26, 2011, 11:23:55 PM »
So you're assertion is that people who are new, and have fewer spells, are smarter than those who have been playing a long time, and have lots of spells. Huh?

I don't think I said anything about the experience level of people involved, just the quantity of spells they own. There will probably come a time where some people who have only just started playing, because of the Council they join, immediately have more spells than someone else who has been playing for a while. In this situation, just because they have more spells, they are new to the game so don't necessarily know exactly what the best way is to use what they have.

With regard to experience, anyone who has been playing longer should have an advantage over new players, so I don't see how that is even an issue.

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It seems like you're counting on the scenario where the person who enters all those spells into the system is incompetent. That seems like a flimsy hope on which to base what could be the success/failure of the game.

No, I'm basing it on the scenario where character xxx has y amount of spells, nothing to do with whether they are ones that character created or not. There may well be some characters who never bother creating their own spells because everything they want is already available. Whereas there may well be other characters who just go on a creation frenzy. At the early stages there will be lots of new spells to be created, later on in the game, if there are hundreds of spells already created, the need/idea of new ones may be limited.

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So even if I were to enter a spell now, that doesn't necessarily mean that I will get to use it later? If I can't, who can? I mean, if no one can duplicate it, and I can't use it, then what happens to it?

We will find ways to ensure spells get into the game.

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Perhaps rather than trust that people will be willing to share their secrets, there should be some threshold of difficulty below which spells can be freely duplicated. Anyone with a functioning brain should be able to duplicate the formula for a Light spell. It's only when you start getting into the higher level/more difficult/complex stuff that duplication is restricted.

A SpellCaster that never shares his secrets is unlikely to have anyone else share things with them, so they could cling to their few secrets but will be missing out on a lot of other opportunities.

Something will be worked out regarding duplication of spells and we will let people know what that is once it is clear to the GMs.

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I don't want to be a doomsayer here in predicting an early death to the game. I'm just trying to understand it, and some of this isn't really making sense to me.

Just remember we haven't actually started the game proper yet and hopefully once it is active, things will make more sense.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #27: August 26, 2011, 11:43:23 PM »
where do I submit spells then? Do I send a private message? The SM3 website doesn't work yet.

James

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #28: August 27, 2011, 12:21:04 AM »
The website should work if you register.
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Jinsyn

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Re: Spells Feedback
« Reply #29: August 27, 2011, 01:52:45 AM »
Edit: Mis-aligned column sort-headings fixed for 'Spells you are currently researching' section.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 08:48:35 PM by JqL »