Author Topic: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region  (Read 17492 times)

Chenier

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #30: September 04, 2011, 07:27:38 AM »
yes, Indirik - that's always been your answer to everything.

Rebel!

Doesn't work (outside of a few basket cases on Dwilight).  You are usually the only voice, get to listen to a lot of "do it for the realm" crap, get to deal with fines, bans, threats, etc.,  get to try to rally silent, apathetic lords to your side

"Leave the Realm - and take your region with you!" - yes, if you are lucky enough to be in a border region, you can. And have them contact your new ruler, asking him to tell you to give the region back because it is "theirs", or to ban you if you don't. Which he often will.

Or you can penalize yourself by throwing away the closest thing to a Duchy you'll probably ever have in the game - a rural region with food to spare.

-----

The problem is, there are supposed to be checks and balances throughout the game. But most of them only work if the players stand up together as a group.  If you have a realm where 90% of the players don't give a !@#$, then you have no checks and balance. You have one vocal knight against the Council and 90% of the realm who just wants you to shut the !@#$ up with your letters of protest so they don't have so much to read and can click their buttons in silence.

Your suggestions are based too much on the "theory of BM", but ignore the practical side.

You pigeonhole every player into two categories, the lame players and you, basically.

There are many realms who are committed to decentralization. And in most cases, it's easy to say that the duke is being greedy for not accepting to pay for the food, because he and his knights usually earn more than the rural lord and his knights do. Furthermore, it's better "for the realm" that caravans be used, since ox carts can result in massive spoilage. And since caravans cost gold to send, it's *normal* that at least a little gold be given for the transfer, so that at least the lord isn't paying for the duke's gold. Arguing for control over one's food supplies is not that difficult.

And I really have a hard time accepting that there are so many of these unbreakable governmental molds where lower-placed nobles can't decide much on their own if there is an option to delegate the power. In Enweil, way back when I hadn't really earned a place for myself, I ended up becoming a marshal, and was frustrated by the incompetance of the general. The general kept getting re-elected because he was a long-time realm member and respected by many influential people who saw me as being probably more of a threat than anything, despite him being bad at it. And at the time, nothing was really moving in Enweil, it was quite stagnant. And yet, my little marshal eventually got fed up with the general and decided to completely and blatantly ignore his orders, stating that his army would no longer be following the general's commands. By your arguments, the institution that is the established realm should have come to crush this new noble thinking he could do things on his own instead of letting the general, a long-timer, decide everything. But they didn't. And I wasn't marshal of some random bureaucratic army, I was marshal of the main army.

Don't assume that every time a person in power is granted the opportunity to centralize power onto himself, he would do so. Some would, but many wouldn't. And that some realms do it while others don't would be a good thing, it would create another aspect for which governance would vary from realm to realm. And the more possibilities there are, the less identical governments there will be, and therefore the less ideological "natural allies" there will be.
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fodder

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #31: September 04, 2011, 07:46:34 AM »
meh.. caravans cost like 1 gold for the whole train. but honestly, they should just remove that gold cost and instead speed up trade when there's a caravan shop.

for example, if region doesn't have shop, there's a delay of 1 day to find and load up caravan... if there's a shop, there's no delay.
firefox

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #32: September 04, 2011, 11:07:21 AM »
meh.. caravans cost like 1 gold for the whole train. but honestly, they should just remove that gold cost and instead speed up trade when there's a caravan shop.

for example, if region doesn't have shop, there's a delay of 1 day to find and load up caravan... if there's a shop, there's no delay.

Caravans are already slower than ox carts, which is a big annoyance. Making it worse will just make the caravan system that much more annoying to deal with.
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Indirik

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #33: September 04, 2011, 02:41:17 PM »
Just stop giving away the few things I left to do in the game. No Banker as Steward. My region's food is my own.
Then don't give it away.

Oh, what's that, the banker asks you to give it away? Oh noes! Conflict in the game? A power struggle? Whate'er shall we do?

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You all work so hard to build up an atmosphere where Region lords are actually the lords of their regions, then you turn around and want to give it all back to the banker cuz it's too hard to click on one button, one time?
If that's all it really took, was "one button, one time", then we wouldn't be having this discussion. And, of course, this discussions isn't about giving all the power back to the banker, either. It's about offering lords who don't want to deal with it  the option to let the banker handle it for them.
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Anaris

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #34: September 04, 2011, 06:13:35 PM »
Caravans are already slower than ox carts, which is a big annoyance. Making it worse will just make the caravan system that much more annoying to deal with.

I'm looking into the best way to fix this, too.  I'm not sure it was ever intentional.
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Ender

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #35: September 04, 2011, 06:23:43 PM »
I am more or less in favor of this. However, I wouldnt want to see entire realms forcing lords to accept the option when they wanted to deal independently. Would it not be possible to make it against the rules to force that on a lord? Perhaps a version of a lords inalienable rights to manage their region's food if they choose?

The reasons why I support it mostly come down to my personal preference. As a lord I usually get pretty annoyed playing with a food game I dont always understand even after all this time. As a trader I get pretty annoyed playing with lords who dont bother replying to letters about trading when having to contact a banker for those lazy lords would work just fine (Seriously, running around Dwilight to places claiming to be selling food and getting zero response from the lords who said they'd sell food gets old after a while. If traders could just directly contact bankers it'd be nice.)

On the flip side I'm glad we have given lords to ability to be independent and control their food. Jens, for example, has made a pretty good run of it in the Barony of Makar, as does the lord my trader serves in Dwilight. It'd be a shame to see that lost.

Telrunya

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #36: September 04, 2011, 06:31:21 PM »
As a sidenote: Traders can contact the Banker directly of the Realm they are currently in.

Ender

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #37: September 04, 2011, 06:34:10 PM »
Would you look at that! I could have sworn I could but it sort of got lost in all those contacts.

fodder

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #38: September 04, 2011, 08:00:24 PM »
Caravans are already slower than ox carts, which is a big annoyance. Making it worse will just make the caravan system that much more annoying to deal with.

well.. old caravan (as in when caravans were 1st introduced).. 1 region per turn . current caravan. 1 region per day. but the description in the game does say trips cost X days.. as opposed to X turns..

now... they don't have to make everything slower than current, because as it stands, if you set a caravan trip, it won't start moving until the next day...  so.. you can say that can correspond as what will happen with no caravan shop. thus, if there is a shop, they could start moving immediately. and starts selling in the next region the next day. thus speeding things up.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 08:06:00 PM by fodder »
firefox

fodder

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #39: September 04, 2011, 08:04:31 PM »
As a sidenote: Traders can contact the Banker directly of the Realm they are currently in.

yes. but they need to know there's stuff to buy in the 1st place before heading there or it's a bit of a wasted trip. by the time you get to write to bankers directly (as opposed to using old contacts or getting contacts from your banker) it tends to be a bit late.

bit silly to be able to write to a foreign ruler who's got nothing to do with trade but not the banker.
firefox

acrandal

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #40: September 04, 2011, 08:28:35 PM »
Don't we have automatic caravans by now? Just set it up once and you're done if you don't care. Or just get a Knight who does want to do it.

The problem is that the automatic caravans work great until an emergency happens.  Mostly this boils down to looting/monsters or regions changing hands for other reasons.  Then the region lords who have never seen the trading pages stumble, and all too many just give up.  I'm not sure how to remedy the giving up part.

Someone mentioned that it's a much smaller percentage of players who enjoy the trading aspects, and that's good, but if we force a larger portion to try and understand it, that's were a problem crops up, especially when the results of the region lords failing in food management eventually tumbles realms.

acrandal

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #41: September 04, 2011, 08:30:57 PM »
And I'll ignore them like I'm ignoring the duchess who told me to send her my excess food for free.

Did you at least write back to the Duchess saying you wouldn't give it away?  If it's an unreasonable request, then please let the requester know you're telling them to stick it.  After the initial "up yours" notice, then ignoring them is fine.

Telrunya

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #42: September 04, 2011, 09:00:10 PM »
Just ask your Banker what to do then :)

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #43: September 05, 2011, 05:44:15 PM »
Did you at least write back to the Duchess saying you wouldn't give it away?  If it's an unreasonable request, then please let the requester know you're telling them to stick it.  After the initial "up yours" notice, then ignoring them is fine.

There was a request to send food to a different region, which was starving, so I sent my food in that direction and sent a letter to the lord of that region, notifying him that the food was on the way. That was probably 3 days ago, and I still don't know if he has a buy order in place, so my food may reach the region and be forced to turn around.

Chenier

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Re: Bankers can be Stewards of any realm's region
« Reply #44: September 05, 2011, 10:38:13 PM »
Did you at least write back to the Duchess saying you wouldn't give it away?  If it's an unreasonable request, then please let the requester know you're telling them to stick it.  After the initial "up yours" notice, then ignoring them is fine.

Why? Nothing forces you to write to people you don't like... It can sometimes be convenient to have "not seen" a particular person's request.
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