Author Topic: Emigrating as an adventurer  (Read 16035 times)

Norrel

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #15: September 07, 2011, 08:16:33 AM »
They really don't. Ships were a massive expense and quite prestigious and often supply limited. No dirty peasant is ever going to be able to purchase one. A rich merchant sure, some guy walking out the forest covered in blood with a bag full of gold, unlikely. You also need to remember that the act of a advy leaving his home realm results in a auto ban. Following that logic what do you think would happen to anyone that provided the means for them to leave their realm and continent?
I think that Shizzle illustrated my point much better than I did.
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Shizzle

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #16: September 07, 2011, 08:18:05 AM »
They really don't. Ships were a massive expense and quite prestigious and often supply limited. No dirty peasant is ever going to be able to purchase one. A rich merchant sure, some guy walking out the forest covered in blood with a bag full of gold, unlikely. You also need to remember that the act of a advy leaving his home realm results in a auto ban. Following that logic what do you think would happen to anyone that provided the means for them to leave their realm and continent?

With the support of a noble, I wouldn't say it's impossible. Many advies carry around recommendations to be lifted into nobility. The cream of nobility, no less. So I think buying a boat will hardly be a problem, if you have the money.

De-Legro

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #17: September 07, 2011, 08:37:30 AM »
With the support of a noble, I wouldn't say it's impossible. Many advies carry around recommendations to be lifted into nobility. The cream of nobility, no less. So I think buying a boat will hardly be a problem, if you have the money.

Fine so lets add ship buying to nobility then. While we are at it Advies should probably be able to buy Paraphernalia and units so long as they have recommendations as well, after all they have the backing of nobility. Hell if they have enough gold they should be able to buy a region and run it as paradise for the lower classes, after all they have recommendations.
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Jens Namtrah

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #18: September 07, 2011, 08:42:50 AM »
No offense, but all those excuses feel quite ..constructed. The reason advies can't emigrate is for OOC purposes, I assume. It's just one of the drawbacks of choosing the class.

...

It's fine tht Advies cannot travel, for some OOC reason. But please don't make up IG excuses for it?

This. +1000.

Contrived arguments like these just lead to long, rambling disagreements and a sense that players in the game aren't really being treated like they have a brain and the ability to reason things through.

If there's a game-play reason, just say "for game play. We don't want advies to have the same abilities as nobles."

Norrel

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #19: September 07, 2011, 08:43:04 AM »
Fine so lets add ship buying to nobility then. While we are at it Advies should probably be able to buy Paraphernalia and units so long as they have recommendations as well, after all they have the backing of nobility. Hell if they have enough gold they should be able to buy a region and run it as paradise for the lower classes, after all they have recommendations.
That doesn't even make any sense. We're not talking about game-breaking stuff that wouldn't add anything to the game, we're talking about adding a feature which would only serve to make the game more enjoyable, and pointing at a variety of ways that would be able to be accomplished in a medieval setting.
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fodder

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #20: September 07, 2011, 08:48:56 AM »
what's wrong with coming up with ic rationale for ooc rules?

irl, there's nothing stopping peasants from forming bandit bands, aside from that militia/army out there waiting to knock them down. does that mean advy should be able to get a unit and beat up nobles?

afaik, it's stated, no migration for advy.
firefox

Norrel

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #21: September 07, 2011, 08:52:18 AM »
what's wrong with coming up with ic rationale for ooc rules?

irl, there's nothing stopping peasants from forming bandit bands, aside from that militia/army out there waiting to knock them down. does that mean advy should be able to get a unit and beat up nobles?

afaik, it's stated, no migration for advy.

What's the OOC rationale?
“it was never wise for a ruler to eschew the trappings of power, for power itself flows in no small measure from such trappings.”
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fodder

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #22: September 07, 2011, 08:54:03 AM »
the game is made so. what more is needed?
firefox

De-Legro

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #23: September 07, 2011, 08:55:17 AM »
No offense, but all those excuses feel quite ..constructed. The reason advies can't emigrate is for OOC purposes, I assume. It's just one of the drawbacks of choosing the class.

A small, but very important, portion of the commoner aristocrats were the large merchants and bankers. While nobles and senior clergy often got involved in lending money, it was the commoners who did most of it. These pools of money were essential for economic growth. All manner of capital improvements, from ship building to industrial expansion, required a large amount of cash to get started. The nobles tended to spend their capital on building splendid homes and fortifications. The church pured much money into cathedrals and abbeys. But vital items like iron works, cloth factories and merchant ship fleets were largely built by entrepenurial commoners. These items produced more wealth, where castles and cathedrals did not. Eventually, this mass of commoner wealth turned into political power and this was beginning to happen even during the Medieval period.

http://www.hyw.com/books/history/Aristocr.htm (I'd look for a better source, but I have an exam in 4 hours :P

In the same way we assume the Nobles to be the very cream of nobility, with even the most basic knight far above average nobility, we probably need to assume Adventurers are far above peasants and the regular commoner. With sometimes enough money to outrank Lords and armour worth huge amounts of money, many Advies concentrate more wealth than many nobles.

I also think that we are pushing the boundaries of our Medieval apartheid too far. Many nobles will have been very pragmatic towards common people, certainly to those with power and money. I can hardly believe Jakob Fugger or Pieter Bladelin were unable to buy a boat, let alone kept from booking a passage.

It's fine tht Advies cannot travel, for some OOC reason. But please don't make up IG excuses for it?

Would you expect that Jakob Fugger or Pieter Bladelin could be arrested or beaten on a noble whim as we can with Advies. Advies are not of the merchant class, they are of the true peasant class from all appearances. There is vast social difference between the common people and the peasants, with the peasantry being a sub class of the commoners, though depending on the time and place it was somewhat possible to move between the sub classes.

We had similar discussion to this a few months back, that covered all sorts of things like the possible scarcity of ship travel blah blah blah and a more recent one here http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,700.msg12804.html . It is often brought up as so far as I know the devs have no intention of adding it.
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Jens Namtrah

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #24: September 07, 2011, 08:58:23 AM »
what's wrong with coming up with ic rationale for ooc rules?

because invariably they are based on bad logic, bad knowledge of history, or bad understanding of the capabilities of human beings.

also, it's not the real reason they can't do it - it's just suggestion on how to role play it in game. It doesn't tell us if it was actually intentional that advies can't emigrate (for example), or if is just that no one ever thought to include it  (and we should go make a Feature Request)

It is completely unhelpful and usually doesn't answer the question

De-Legro

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #25: September 07, 2011, 09:00:43 AM »
because invariably they are based on bad logic, bad knowledge of history, or bad understanding of the capabilities of human beings.

also, it's not the real reason they can't do it - it's just suggestion on how to role play it in game. It doesn't tell us if it was actually intentional that advies can't emigrate (for example), or if is just that no one ever thought to include it  (and we should go make a Feature Request)

It is completely unhelpful and usually doesn't answer the question

It is intentional. Its just one of the restrictions Tom places on Advies to make it clear they are different to nobles.

Also bad logic is generall subjective. To me it is bad logic to allow an advy to purchase a ship, but restrict access to cheaper more accessible purchases because of balance. In this case to me the logical thing would be to allow the balance case to rule, which then results in the purchase of ships being somewhat out of place within the game world.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 09:04:18 AM by De-Legro »
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Shizzle

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #26: September 07, 2011, 09:25:26 AM »
Fine so lets add ship buying to nobility then. While we are at it Advies should probably be able to buy Paraphernalia and units so long as they have recommendations as well, after all they have the backing of nobility. Hell if they have enough gold they should be able to buy a region and run it as paradise for the lower classes, after all they have recommendations.

That made me smile :) (not trying to be mean)

I'm not being the commy advy leader here, asking for equality. I'm just asking to stop fabricating arguments, to make things "work" in-game. It's perfectly fine that Advies can't emigrate. Sure it would be cool to be able to do it, in the way it would be cool to lead a killer unit to glory - being a Priest.

And you statement that Advies can be beat up anytime, and PB or Fugger not, is untrue. Both figures could have been beaten up on a noble's order, I am sure. However, with the support of powerful allies, they were sheltered from such attacks. In exactly the same way as we see nobles in BM defending their "lap dogs" and friends.

Also, I am aware we discussed this before. That's what these forums are for, no?:)

Lastly, I can only agree with post #25.

Tom

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #27: September 07, 2011, 10:21:16 AM »
I also think that we are pushing the boundaries of our Medieval apartheid too far. Many nobles will have been very pragmatic towards common people, certainly to those with power and money. I can hardly believe Jakob Fugger or Pieter Bladelin were unable to buy a boat, let alone kept from booking a passage.

None of our adventurers is even remotely anything like that. They don't own banking houses going back five generations. To a world of heritage, that is worth more than the gold inside.

They may be rich compared to your average knight's active purse. But don't forget all the gold that even the average knight goes through on a regular basis. And I think the "rich" part is grossly overstated. In none of our game worlds do the top 10 adventurers (sorted by gold) own more than 100 gold. In most game worlds, only the top three or so own more than 100 gold. Only on Dwilight do more than two adventurers own more than 200 gold. On all game worlds, the average gold for adventurers is somewhere between 10 and 20 gold, while the average gold for nobles is at least 100 gold, except for the East Island (where it's slightly lower) and for Priests in the Colonies.

And don't forget that a ship is a major expense. Columbus went to kings and queens in order to get financing for his voyage, as did many others. An ocean-going ship is well beyond the financial capabilities of all but the most powerful and wealthy nobles.

The rise of merchants and bankers as powerful players was towards the end of the middle ages, if not beyond it. The Fuggers were a family of nobodies in the time period that the middle ages span (up to the 15th century, with the Fuggers not appearing on the scene before the 16th century).



I do think, however, that we should look into taxation for adventurers again. I think on tax day they should be taxed by whatever region they happen to be in on that day, in addition to the realm taxes they already pay.

Jens Namtrah

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #28: September 07, 2011, 10:45:41 AM »

So, they sign on as a deckhand and then jump ship in a convenient port.  Just say (as has been said) it is for game play reasons

I do think, however, that we should look into taxation for adventurers again. I think on tax day they should be taxed by whatever region they happen to be in on that day, in addition to the realm taxes they already pay.


I can think of a million ways I'd rather see the dev team spend their time, personally. A million unfinished features. A million things that would add more fun to the game, instead of just taking 10 gold from advies every month.

Tom

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Re: Emigrating as an adventurer
« Reply #29: September 07, 2011, 11:56:40 AM »
Not just taking. That gold doesn't disappear, it goes to the region lords... I forsee at least five interesting ways for nobles to exploit this. And nobles should exploit commoners.