New estates effect on looting and TOs

[vonGenf]

So, the new estates will have no effect whatsoever on the region stats. I think this is likely to have a huge effect on war strategy.

For example, currently, regions on the borders are more likely to be looted and TOed. This means that these regions should have more knights, and that their estates must be set mainly to authority. Most realms have their productive region in their heartland and a string of less productive but better controlled regions on their periphery. With the new system that won't work.

One advantage of this is that this will allow more expansion. A successful realm with a lack of knights will be able to expand until they reach the 1 noble/region ratio.

On the other hand, a realm with a 20 noble/region ratio will have no advantage whatsoever from this, except at most a doubling of their revenues as they have full estate coverage. I think this is likely to result in large realms absorbing small ones.

One further thing is that this would increase the effectiveness of looting, as you cannot count on the region going back to equilibrium. Currently, a well-controlled region will tend back to a good level of production, with civil work accelerating this; therefore armies can concentrate on protecting the region and eventually it will be useful. With the new estates, I think civil work will become mandatory.


Comments, ideas?

[Tom]

A 2 nobles/region ratio is probably the lowest you can do without losing a massive amount of income. 20 nobles/region? Which game is that? :-) There aren't any realms in the game even approaching a 10 nobles/region ratio. :-)

But aside from the nitpicking, there will be disadvantages, and you put down lost revenue as if it wouldn't matter. But it does.

[vonGenf]

Dying realms usually get a large noble/region ratio, as all nobles are corralled up in the remaining regions. The Akadian League had 25 nobles in only Akanos at some point.

On EC for example, at the moment Sirion has 3.4 noble/region and and Fontan has 8.75 nobles per region. I would hazard a guess that Sirion's region are easier to TO than Fontan's regions. This will not be true with the new system.

[JPierreD]

On the other hand, a realm with a 20 noble/region ratio will have no advantage whatsoever from this, except at most a doubling of their revenues as they have full estate coverage. I think this is likely to result in large realms absorbing small ones.

This we don't know, if it were so no Lord would have the incentive to have more than a single knight (to cover 100% of the land).

I would suppose the smaller possible Estate would be the most efficient taxing gold and perhaps even food, and the larger comparatively more inefficient. That way a Lord would have to choose between having a maximum-sized Estate (50% or whatever number is chosen) and thus the largest possible individual income, or a smaller Estate but higher global income (gold gained by himself and his knights). He could end up even gaining with a smaller Estate by having enough Knights and taxing them properly.

Being more clear:

* Lord A has 1 knight, with a 50% Estates, same size as his (max), taxing him on 20% of what he earns. Say the region has a 200 gold potential at the current tax, but for having maxed Estates he is inefficient and they only get 75% of it (still better than 50% of no Estate coverage). His knight makes 75 and is taxed by 15 from his lord, keeping 60. The Lord makes 90, without deducting Ducal taxes.

* Lord B has 9 knights with 10% Estates, same as his (or insert any other amount to be the minimum if preferred), and they have the same 20% tax. Now they are making a total 200 gold instead of 150, only that the knights keep only 16 gold each, and the Lord makes 52.

* Lord C has the same situation as Lord A, but runs 75% taxes on his knight. He makes 125 gold and his knight 25.

* Lord D has the same situation as Lord B, but runs 75% taxes on his knights. He makes 155 and his knights make 15 each.

What I do not see is any kind of incentive for the Lord /not/ to have an Estate...

[Tom]

On EC for example, at the moment Sirion has 3.4 noble/region and and Fontan has 8.75 nobles per region. I would hazard a guess that Sirion's region are easier to TO than Fontan's regions. This will not be true with the new system.

You assume they will, which is not necessarily true. Sirion certainly isn't known for having its regions taken away all the time.

There will also be many secondary effects of this change that will counter any such effects. For example, losing the region would mean for all knights who have their estates there that they will lose their source of income. That should certainly give them an incentive for defending it that was not as strong in the old system.

[Kai]

You assume they will, which is not necessarily true. Sirion certainly isn't known for having its regions taken away all the time.

There will also be many secondary effects of this change that will counter any such effects. For example, losing the region would mean for all knights who have their estates there that they will lose their source of income. That should certainly give them an incentive for defending it that was not as strong in the old system.

I don't know, most knights get the majority of their income from estate right now anyway. And all the knights of a region (about 4) is a pretty pathetic force.

[egamma]

I don't know, most knights get the majority of their income from estate right now anyway. And all the knights of a region (about 4) is a pretty pathetic force.

I'm with Kai on this one. 20 invading nobles can't be defeated by 3 defending nobles.

[Chenier]

I'm with Kai on this one. 20 invading nobles can't be defeated by 3 defending nobles.

Indeed, knights' incomes was already tied to the region.

In the old system, in some realms, it was hard for knights to find oaths. Now that there isn't any incentive to have any knights (50% estate + 50% wildlands = 75% of the region's income, more for the lord than if he gives 50% to another even if the region's total gold output would be greater), won't this become a problem?

[Telrunya]

There will be a soft incentive for Lords to get Knights. Also, from a Realm point of view, it will matter for the Lord to take on Knights as the total gold production rises. The Realm should put pressure on a Lord to do so or face to be weakened (Less gold, less troops) up to the point to have Nobles leaving (Strife!). And I'm sure there will be plenty of other Realms that will gladly make use of that, especially now that they would be able to expand easier. Of course, the Lord always gets some more power within the Realm with Knights, seen most obviously in Realms where Knights directly translate into more votes in Elections and Referenda.

Basically, more flexibility! Realms aren't so restricted with having less Nobles, and get benefits when more Nobles join to fill up the wildlands. It may not be the best thing for the Lord's pocket, but that's not the whole picture.

[Tom]

Indeed, knights' incomes was already tied to the region.

In the old system, in some realms, it was hard for knights to find oaths. Now that there isn't any incentive to have any knights (50% estate + 50% wildlands = 75% of the region's income, more for the lord than if he gives 50% to another even if the region's total gold output would be greater), won't this become a problem?

I am getting really angry when I read stuff like this.

It's written on the wiki, it was explained twice in the Q&A and at least three times in the forum by now:

There will !@#$ing be some !@#$ing incentives to make sure most !@#$ing lords will have more than one !@#$ing knight. Have you !@#$ing got it?

Maybe now it's memorized. We've tried explaining it calmly and friendly several times. :-)

[Ramiel]

I am getting really angry when I read stuff like this.

It's written on the wiki, it was explained twice in the Q&A and at least three times in the forum by now:

There will !@#$ing be some !@#$ing incentives to make sure most !@#$ing lords will have more than one !@#$ing knight. Have you !@#$ing got it?

Maybe now it's memorized. We've tried explaining it calmly and friendly several times. :-)

I loled.

Anyway, O Almighty Tom of all Creation, since we will no longer have Authority and Productivity and Idle Estates, how can we fiddle with the stats using estates, or do estates no longer bother with the two things?

[Indirik]

how can we fiddle with the stats using estates

There are future plans along this line.  Eventually estates will become more important to the knight himself as something other than a source of gold. Knights will want to protect their estates, and not be quite so willing to region-hop looking to get another 2 gold a week. This is a longer-term plan, though. We need to get the system up and running before we start looking at more ways to make it better.

[Perth]

It's written on the wiki, it was explained twice in the Q&A and at least three times in the forum by now:

Oh Tom, you thought people would actually read all the available information that would answer all their questions before just asking their question or assuming something?   

[Chenier]

Oh Tom, you thought people would actually read all the available information that would answer all their questions before just asking their question or assuming something?   

I read the wiki page. I wasn't on for the IRC Q&A, and I can't find a log of what was said anywhere either.

I just tend to put vague statements in my very short memory. Re-reading the wiki, I found "There will also be a "soft incentive" to not use the maximum sizes unless you have to, and instead offer more knights an estate. My design goal is that in all realms that are not severely overcrowded, every character can find an estate."

I personally can't think of anything that would encourage sharing meaningful chunks of one's estates without being harmful to expansionism and brutal to underpopulated realms, without relying on goodwill and generosity that is. Some things can try to balance the financial loss by other gains, of course (for example, political power according to number of knights one has), but that's for those who care.

[Tom]

Anyway, O Almighty Tom of all Creation, since we will no longer have Authority and Productivity and Idle Estates, how can we fiddle with the stats using estates, or do estates no longer bother with the two things?

The penalties with not having enough estate coverage will also be removed, so it should equal out. For the future, there are many great plans that I can't yet reveal.

I personally can't think of anything that would encourage sharing meaningful chunks of one's estates without being harmful to expansionism and brutal to underpopulated realms, without relying on goodwill and generosity that is.

I can, but the details are tricky which is why this part is not yet finished.