Sanguis Astroism

[Indirik]

Most religions, both past and present, require their teachings to come from the divine and for Constantine and many others in SA the only way we can verifiably say that a teaching has come from the Stars is if it comes through or is approved by the Holy Prophet himself.

It may not be nice for those with new ideas that we keep pouncing on new things and calling them heresy but it makes sense from an SMA POV.

My character, Brance Indirik, having been present at the founding of the religion, vehemently disputes this assertion. He has argued constantly against the Holy Prophet's infallibility for IG years.

As a player, my biggest disappointment with SA has been with the strong Catholic influence in Sanguis Astroism. There was a trend within SA at some to for all the priests and elders to call other people "son" or "daughter", and to refer to priests as "father". We had positions named "cardinal" and "bishop". And once someone started doing it, others quickly fell in line and started doing it, too. I am fairly certain that the infallibility trend started along the same lines as Papal Infallibility.

I found it extremely irritating. In fact, one of my biggest personal goals during the time I was regent was to revamp the rank structure to get rid of stuff like that.

[Meneldur]

My character, Brance Indirik, having been present at the founding of the religion, vehemently disputes this assertion. He has argued constantly against the Holy Prophet's infallibility for IG years.

As a player, my biggest disappointment with SA has been with the strong Catholic influence in Sanguis Astroism. There was a trend within SA at some to for all the priests and elders to call other people "son" or "daughter", and to refer to priests as "father". We had positions named "cardinal" and "bishop". And once someone started doing it, others quickly fell in line and started doing it, too. I am fairly certain that the infallibility trend started along the same lines as Papal Infallibility.

I found it extremely irritating. In fact, one of my biggest personal goals during the time I was regent was to revamp the rank structure to get rid of stuff like that.

Indeed, I remember the old infallibility debate with Brance and Allison; finished inconclusively but Constantine is still a firm believer.

Although I agree there has been some Catholic/SA crossovers in places I'm don't think infallibility is one of them. Essentially the Pope's infallibility in Catholicism is very much based on whether the doctrine declared was already accepted (he can't make new stuff up only reaffirm old stuff that is not yet dogma) and he can use his infallibility only when teaching "ex cathedra".
 The Prophetic infallibility held by some in SA (including Constantine) is much more powerful; essentially comparable to the status of the OT Prophets in Christianity and Judaism and the Prophet Mohammed in Islam; a "words coming directly from the divine" kind of thing that the Papacy never enjoyed.

Of course I can't speak for the other players but I can say for certain that Constantine's views on Infallibility weren't drawn on any perceived relations with Catholicism but rather from his understanding of the nature of Prophet-hood as well as his personal encounters with Mathurin.

In any case I think Mathurin has done a great job of ensuring that there isn't a schism on the matter 

[Indirik]

In any case I think Mathurin has done a great job of ensuring that there isn't a schism on the matter 

Really? I can't agree with that one. He's avoided the entire topic. The only time I ever heard him address it was when he said something like: "I don't know if I'm infallible." When the elders of the church are threatening excommunication toward anyone who denies the Prophet's infallibility, you'd think the Prophet would speak up.

[Meneldur]

Really? I can't agree with that one. He's avoided the entire topic. The only time I ever heard him address it was when he said something like: "I don't know if I'm infallible." When the elders of the church are threatening excommunication toward anyone who denies the Prophet's infallibility, you'd think the Prophet would speak up.

I think its this avoidance that actually stops the schism. We Elders weren't able to excommunicate Allison for the simple reason that there was no concrete Church document contradicting her words (the Magestratum refused to condemn her for this very reason); thats why we helped form the Creed so that in the future there could be a definitive document. As it stands there is a sort of stalemate regarding the infallibility issue; a majority of Elders support it and are aware that some prominent nobles do not but we are restricted as to what actions we can take without a decree from Mathurin.

IMO clarity is a double edged sword- on one hand it would stop this kind of limbo with regards to infallibility that we currently have but on the other hand it would allow one side form being able to excommunicate the other. Of course Constantine wishes the Prophet would just declare infallibility but as a player I think the silence is what prevents a schism.

[De-Legro]

No, but this is still a game, and games were meant so that we could explore fantasies and alternate paths that do not exist in the real world.

Some games, others are a much simpler form of entertainment. That said ALL games have structures and restrictions, that are either design choices or limitations of the technology. BM is low fantasy for example so my characters isn't a rocking inter dimensional mage. I'm not saying that religions can't be formed that ARE open to new ideas. But at the same time there is no reason a religion in game HAS to.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Well, yeah. My point was more to imply that a game that tried to be too realistic usually is a boring game, unless the point is to be realistic like a sim. I have a feeling that BM isn't quite so strict on realism.

And, I am not saying that we walk around blasting fireballs out of our eyeballs (though I have certainly asked for something...similar but not that ridiculous). I do mean, though, that, obviously, within reason, there is no need for too much enforcement. I think that if we were to apply something like a bunch of checkboxes for religions, for example, pretty soon we'll see players complaining about how restrictive the options are, like "These checkboxes don't let us worship sparkly vampire dragons" or "There's no checkbox that describes which animals are included in our sacrifices", etc.

[loren]

How about praise for Sanguis Astroism? Do I have to open a new thread for that? 

I'll just say that Sanguis Astroism is the only religion in BattleMaster that has ever really piqued my interest. I don't think any other one has managed to come up with as compelling a religion. And it really has nothing to do with the depth of theology, either. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite. The fact that it is not all written down and set in stone probably has a lot to do with it. There's a feeling that people can contribute and make their mark on things. Rather than have everything carved in stone and handed down from on high, individual players can generally feel like they can help shape the evolution of the theology. So, there's no creation mythos? Feel free to write it, and then we can all get together and debate it. Is there an afterlife among the Stars? Who know. Why don't you write your own interpretation of the Prophet's words and present it to the members for debate. I think that provides for a much better player atmosphere than those religions where one person sits down and writes everything and then tells you what you should believe.

Must not have been involved with Magna Serpaensism at all.  All priests were encouraged to add to the mythos and ritual.  I remember specifically creating a story about why all the Falasan cities were named Barad X to convince some of the nobles of that realm to join.  The pantheon was also setup specifically so that personality types, not character classes, could find a niche.  Vulpes was especially popular with one character.

[Geronus]

I find the theological and political debates within SA to be some of the best and most rewarding exchanges I've had in BM. Some of the issues we have debated (the infallibility of the Prophet, whether to revert to a rigid dogma or allow individual interpretations of the teachings) are issues that I'm fairly certain were debated upon in one form or another in the earliest beginnings of true monotheistic religions in the real world. It's actually been fairly fascinating to debate these issues in the context of a young religion that is, contrary to some assertions, taken seriously by quite a large number of characters.

[Various Esotericus]

Personally, I just wish i had more time to properly dig into SA and really get my teeth into it.

My char on Dwilight, Varchilde, considers herself moderate in the Church but, having been converted by Mathurin 'Himself', she is a VERY vocal supporter of Him and tends to lean toward a certain opinion of 'divinity' where he is concerned.
It's safe to say she thinks he walks on water and needs no proof to continue to believe it.

As far as religion in BM goes, I really love the whole idea of SA, let alone the actual enormity of its existence.
It is SUCH a fun tool to play with and delve into.

And yeah, only those who aren't a part of it see it as purely political.
For the Faithful within the Church (for the most part), the Faith is a very real thing and well worthy of lively debate and the occasional duel.

[De-Legro]

Common faithful should not question the clergy. Especially not in a SMA continent. Religions which encourage this should be warned.

Religions should be among the most controlled mechanics in the game, imo. There's something seriously wrong that we can for example create a religion to "worship" a god of Trade, without any code of morals/conduct/practise, but that we can't use the "duel" mechanic to simulate a joust.

Religions should reflect realistic religions, and not be abused and used as something more akin to modern frat houses. People are free to create guilds for such groups.

Rubbish. Not all religions have installed a clergy that is an "absolute" authority over their flock. Even some medieval Christian sects had the concept of the Clergy as a guide who is also following the journey rather then "absolute" and the reality for parish preachers was certainly much different the respect and obedience a bishop could command.

[Zakilevo]

Why do you think BM religions should reflect the Real life religions?

I think we should try to make religions in BM differently than the RL religions. I am a bit disappointed by many regions in BM copying from the real ones actually.

[Celestine]

Soooo what happns when a noble appears in Astrum who comes from strong Magna Serpaensism roots?

[Indirik]

Umm... Nothing? Contrary to popular belief, SA is not a ruthless, intolerant religion. It is perfectly willing to coexist with other religions that are content to coexist with it.

Just don't expect to get a position of authority in a theocracy without being a member of the official religion.

[Meneldur]

Soooo what happns when a noble appears in Astrum who comes from strong Magna Serpaensism roots?

If I remember correctly we had a similar case in Astrum's early days with a noble who claimed to follow "Thor".... generally as long as you keep your religion to yourself and don't try to convert people or build any temples then I doubt anything drastic will occur

[Celestine]

Lol well that's no fun!