Elrism

[cjnodell]

As I am sure most of you know, Cedric has recently formed a new religion, Elrism (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Elrism), in Barca. This is my first time running a religion or even being anything other than a lowly priest, so any suggestions are welcome! I would love to hear peoples thoughts on the religion, positive or negative!

[JPierreD]

Interesting, and very Christian-like. It seems like quite an aggressive religion, am I right?

[Indirik]

Well, since you asked, it bears a striking similarity to Christianity. At least in my non-theologian's mind. Too much so for me to have any of my characters follow it.

[Galvez]

It seems like quite an aggressive religion, am I right?

WikiQuote: "While Elrism seeks to convert as many as possible, they only seek willing converts. Lip service alone is not enough and only truly dedicated members are sought. Elrism teaches that the beast way to convert others is through kindness and example. If the benefits of Elrin's faith can be seen then people will want to enjoy them in kind."

Well, since you asked, it bears a striking similarity to Christianity. At least in my non-theologian's mind. Too much so for me to have any of my characters follow it.

One of the few monotheistic religion in BM is being criticized for its similarities to Christianity? Could you give a few arguments why you believe it has too many similarities to Christianity, please?

[Indirik]

One of the few monotheistic religion in BM is being criticized for its similarities to Christianity? Could you give a few arguments why you believe it has too many similarities to Christianity, please?

First of all, I did not say it had "too many similarities to Christianity". I said it was strikingly similar to Christianity, and that none of my characters would follow it. That doesn't mean that I think it's too similar to be used IG.

Second, the similarities may be a natural consequence of it being a monotheistic faith. But I don't think so.

Third, what in it is not very similar to Christianity? Almost everything I saw when I skimmed the page a few days ago seemed to me to be based on Christianity with the names changed. One true male deity, stern but loving, created the universe, cast those who rebelled against him out of Heaven and they went down into to Hell, only by repenting and accepting the forgiveness of God can you cast off the Taint (i.e. original sin) and redeem yourself in the eyes of God and get to Heaven (i.e. accept Jesus as your personal savior), god created the Delmai (i.e. angels) to shepherd humanity, the Delmai revolted against god whereupon he cast them down, if you commit a sin you have to make an Admission (i.e. Confession) to a priest, etc., etc. ... Is any of this ringing a bell yet? I'm sure I could continue to point out the parallels.

But, again, maybe this is because it is a monotheistic religion? I'm not sure, since I'm no theologian. And maybe this is just me seeing something that isn't there. But the similarity that I see is enough that I wouldn't want my characters to be in it. (Which would be true even if I didn't have a character on Dwilight already in a different religion.)

And I'm obviously not the only who sees the parallels.

[cjnodell]

Hmmm... I was trying to give the religion a realistic feel by echoing elements of real world monotheistic religions. Perhaps I went a little too far in that regard. I wanted to omit a savior such as is in Christianity. I wanted to give the god a more old testament feel. I am, however very open to ideas that could help differentiate it from Christianity a bit more. Any suggestions are welcome and I have left plenty of room for adjustments to the religion in the beginning. How changes do you think I could implement that would give the religion a different FEEL?

[Nosferatus]

it's unavoidable to be really like something thats already there as what ever you produce is a product of what you perceive.
When you aim at a monotheistic faith it will have lots of similarities with other monotheistic faiths, like judaism, islam, christianity and all the derivatives from it.
I got the same 'critics' on my religion for beluaterra, funny how no one actually said it looked like islam or judaism, with one going even further in its faith and the other beeing the direct originator of both islam and christendom.
I seriously also don't get why thats a problem, some people seem to get anoyed of anything that looks like the real world, as that wouldnt be 'creative'.

Well i have a messages for you guys, go learn more about religions (and philosphy for that mather) and you will see that every single religion in BM has striking similarities with atleast one(if not many or even all) existing religions (now or in the past).
The same goes with every realm.

You cannot say that you can create something new, you will always use information in your brain that has been put there.
The way your process that information is unique but the product is not.
So even though you think you made something creative you actually just processed certain information in a new way for your knowledge.

Progress and in unique creativity is quite the illusion.
You can only progress in complexity, thats how the universe works.

I do think blindly copying complete stuff from existing religions or nations is sad and boring but i do not think this guy is doing that, nor am i for that mater.

[Nosferatus]

I also like to add that you don't necessarily have to come out with something that is as similiar to Christianity as elrism, but this form of a monotheistic church is the only one that really worked, in other words, lasted threwout the ages and managed to unite the inunitable under one strong single autority.
Religion is like war, your religion needs a good formula to work, only a few are really that effective.

I look forth to more religions in this form, for most religions in BM reall really lack any sucsesful or interesting form and most don't even have a culture or awnsers on philosophical questions, which is nesary for these kind of religions.
People should stop thinking but rather just believe what the book and authority tells them too in a monotheistic faith.
Philosophy should literally die a silent death.

[cjnodell]

Interesting, and very Christian-like. It seems like quite an aggressive religion, am I right?

Not overtly agressive but still agressive in a sense. It is mandated that followers should do their best to spread the "truth" to all. The religion also has no qulams declaring all other religions false and their followers misguided. At the same time the religion only wants dedicated members and a strong community so forced conversions are not an option. Additionaly, the current idea is to convert by tempting with honey ranther then threatining with BAD THINGS.

[Indirik]

When you aim at a monotheistic faith it will have lots of similarities with other monotheistic faiths, like judaism, islam, christianity and all the derivatives from it.

Yes, I agree. But that doesn't mean that you can't be creative around what already exists, and differentiate yourself from it.

I got the same 'critics' on my religion for beluaterra, funny how no one actually said it looked like islam or judaism

That would require someone familiar with Islam or Judaism ot have read it, noticed the similarities, and then cared enough to comment on it. And depending how similar/different it is, they may not have noticed. Or didn't think the similarity was enough that it mattered.

I seriously also don't get why thats a problem, some people seem to get anoyed of anything that looks like the real world, as that wouldnt be 'creative'.

For me, it's the creativity that's the big problem. It's that I don't want real life to intrude on my gaming. I don't want to log in to play a game and have the Catholic church staring me in the face.

[cjnodell]

It is a good point. My religious experiences primarily consist of Christianity, Wicca, Taoism and various mythologies. Taoist like religions, in my opinion does not fit well in a middle age Europe  and there are plenty of paganish religions out there based both on mythologies and  new age ideas. Plenty of Star worship religions too. Oh, and Daimon worship... All the same, I am eager to hear some ideas of how one could envision giving Elrism a flavor would distinguish it more from Christianity!

[Geronus]

It is a good point. My religious experiences primarily consist of Christianity, Wicca, Taoism and various mythologies. Taoist like religions, in my opinion does not fit well in a middle age Europe  and there are plenty of paganish religions out there based both on mythologies and  new age ideas. Plenty of Star worship religions too. Oh, and Daimon worship... All the same, I am eager to hear some ideas of how one could envision giving Elrism a flavor would distinguish it more from Christianity!

I refer you to Torenism for an example of a very well fleshed out monotheistic religion. While it borrows a number of terms from Christianity (e.g. Messiah), the connotations are very different, and the cosmology is a major departure.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Torenism

[cjnodell]

Thank you for the resource. I will look into it!

[Indirik]

Yeah, Torenism was very well done. Could have been a very fun religion to be in, if I hadn't had to have the killed.

[Galvez]

One true male deity, stern but loving, created the universe,

That's what you get in a monotheistic religion, one true and perfect God.

cast those who rebelled against him out of Heaven and they went down into to Hell, only by repenting and accepting the forgiveness of God can you cast off the Taint (i.e. original sin) and redeem yourself in the eyes of God and get to Heaven (i.e. accept Jesus as your personal savior)

Elrism claims that the Delmai were cast out of Heaven, however they could never redeem themselves. They are Elrin's enemy and later willingly occupied hell.
The Taint in Elrism is best described as humanity being corrupted by the Delmai, and is also used to create a natural distance between nobility and peasantry.
And as in every religion of BM, serve God well and receive salvation and eternal life in the presence of God.

god created the Delmai (i.e. angels) to shepherd humanity, the Delmai revolted against god whereupon he cast them down,

Angels are the messengers of God, to carry out God's will, including shepherding humanity. But from what I know, God never banned the angels from Heaven. But correct me if I'm wrong.
To me it seems Pelgart wanted to create an antagonist of Elrin. And it would be illogical for Elrin to create powerful deities to be His enemy. So, he created powerful shepherds who became power hungry in the absence of Elrin, and upon His return He cast them out, subsequently creating the antagonist. Good RP if you ask me.

if you commit a sin you have to make an Admission (i.e. Confession) to a priest, etc., etc. ...

In every religion you see that those who acted contrary to God's bidding will seek out priests to make amends for their sins.

From such a point of view, every earthly monotheistic religions are strikingly similar to Christianity, and that alone would make your criticism moot.