Author Topic: Elrism  (Read 13299 times)

JPierreD

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #15: September 22, 2011, 08:08:26 PM »
If you want to get inspiration from monotheistic religions, don't  limit yourself to Christianity, Judaism and Islam, also check the Druze, Sikhism and Zoroastrianism. Each of them add quite different elements. Also, I would recommend you not to only grab ideas from them, twist and mold beliefs from polytheistic religions, considering a sole god in the place they put their pantheons or some individual god's actions. Popular beliefs and philosophies are good sources too. And unrelated stuff from out of your head? Even better!

I have no intentions of judging your religion, but I honestly think it takes draws way too much from Christianity and Judaism, with not many unique elements to distinguish from them. Thought it is against the interests of my Dwilight character (Torpius) and his religion, if you want I can give you more specific suggestions on what to change to make it more interesting (or rather what I consider interesting myself, note the distinction).
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Re: Elrism
« Reply #16: September 22, 2011, 08:31:59 PM »
Thought it is against the interests of my Dwilight character (Torpius) and his religion, if you want I can give you more specific suggestions on what to change to make it more interesting (or rather what I consider interesting myself, note the distinction).

I would be glad to hear some specific ideas. I might not like them but they could be fuel for thought. I Made some updates to the presentation of things on the wiki page but one could easily claim striking similarities to Abrahamic religions. I will also look into some of the monotheisms you suggested.

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #17: September 22, 2011, 08:36:36 PM »
I have to agree with Galvez in that it is not easy to create a generic, monotheistic religion without it bearing resemblance to existing, real world religions. For example, Torenism seems to distinguish itself by focusing on battle and right of the strongest. Not bad, but not all that inviting to the farmer of courtier. I could be off there though as I just skimmed over the religion page. Very well put together! Thanks for all the feedback thus far!

I was also wondering if anyone had an idea for a religious symbol that might be fitting to Elrism? I put two concepts on the wiki but I am unsure if I like either...

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/File:ElrismV1.png
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/File:ElrismV2.png
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 08:42:03 PM by Pelgart »

Geronus

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #18: September 22, 2011, 08:48:58 PM »
That's what you get in a monotheistic religion, one true and perfect God.

Yes, but said God's personality, attitude and motivations can vary wildly. Such a god does not need to be loving or redemptive, as the New Testament God is. It would be fascinating to see a monotheistic religion whose creator God was actually vengeful and cruel and only created mortals to worship him and so that he would have playthings to torment at his whim. People would worship out of fear, and their rituals would be designed to stave off his attentions. In a cruel and arbitrary world such a religion makes sense, does it not?

Elrism claims that the Delmai were cast out of Heaven, however they could never redeem themselves. They are Elrin's enemy and later willingly occupied hell.
Angels are the messengers of God, to carry out God's will, including shepherding humanity. But from what I know, God never banned the angels from Heaven. But correct me if I'm wrong.
To me it seems Pelgart wanted to create an antagonist of Elrin. And it would be illogical for Elrin to create powerful deities to be His enemy. So, he created powerful shepherds who became power hungry in the absence of Elrin, and upon His return He cast them out, subsequently creating the antagonist. Good RP if you ask me.

This is basically the story of the fall of Lucifer. God created servants, the greatest of whom then rebelled against him out of pride and jealousy, convincing many other Angels to join him in his revolt. The rebel Angels were cast out of Heaven and banished to Hell where Lucifer became the Adversary, and the other fallen Angels became demons. Sound familiar?

The Taint in Elrism is best described as humanity being corrupted by the Delmai, and is also used to create a natural distance between nobility and peasantry.

Original Sin. In many interpretations, the Serpent in the Garden was Lucifer.

And as in every religion of BM, serve God well and receive salvation and eternal life in the presence of God.

Not every religion in BM has an afterlife, for example SA.

In every religion you see that those who acted contrary to God's bidding will seek out priests to make amends for their sins.

This requires your religion to have the concept of Sin. Not every religion does.

In general, this is a matter of opinion. I see Indirik's point, there are a lot of parallels, many more than in Torenism for example. I don't really mind the way Indirik does, but others might I suppose.

Darksun

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #19: September 22, 2011, 09:20:20 PM »
SA has no afterlife?

CRAP. What a honky religion.

Galvez

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #20: September 22, 2011, 09:21:08 PM »
Yes, but said God's personality, attitude and motivations can vary wildly. Such a god does not need to be loving or redemptive, as the New Testament God is. It would be fascinating to see a monotheistic religion whose creator God was actually vengeful and cruel and only created mortals to worship him and so that he would have playthings to torment at his whim. People would worship out of fear, and their rituals would be designed to stave off his attentions. In a cruel and arbitrary world such a religion makes sense, does it not?
You want your religion to last for more than 1 week? While it would be interesting, I believe you create aversion against your religion. For that reason I also don't believe Cordatus Bestiarium will ever become successful.

This is basically the story of the fall of Lucifer. God created servants, the greatest of whom then rebelled against him out of pride and jealousy, convincing many other Angels to join him in his revolt. The rebel Angels were cast out of Heaven and banished to Hell where Lucifer became the Adversary, and the other fallen Angels became demons. Sound familiar?
I don't believe the bible mentions Lucifer as Satan, or as angel for that matter.

Not every religion in BM has an afterlife, for example SA.
Another reason not to follow SA, they do not even offer you salvation.

This requires your religion to have the concept of Sin. Not every religion does.
Dictionary: Sin = "A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate."
If you have some doctrine or religious law you can break, I think we can talk about sin in general. Not something particularly Christian.
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JPierreD

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #21: September 22, 2011, 09:29:01 PM »
Alright, here are some critics and ideas.

* The Delmai: Their myth has two problems:
 First, it doesn't really differentiate much from Lucifer's myth, apart from being all the angels rebelling instead of the "best" one. They could use some unique source and objective, for example say they were men, like everyone else, but in an early age they got corrupted by something, and now seek to spread corruption among men, dragging them down with them (perhaps using the image of a drowning man pulling things down with him).
 Second, nothing explains why /all/ of them became corrupted, nor why Elrin made them a place before they rebelled, much less why he made Kragmar to begin with. If you follow the common-source idea, the repentant Delmai could have become the peasantry, while those that stayed always faithful would be the nobles. Regarding Kragmar, it could be simply a place where men lived that got corrupted when they turned into Delmai, becoming their home. For such, Elrin separated it from the rest of the earth, and cast it apart. Just an idea.

* The Writ: Unfortunately, it strikes huge semblance to the Bible or the Quran. You could use the Celtic-Druid or Greek idea of a oral tradition, in the first example being its knowledge secret to everyone but the clergy, and taking from both there could be secret formulas and passages, and public ones. You can further mix it making the public passages written, and the secret ones forbidden to be written, for example. If you want to add the random factor, have one kind of divination process, perhaps with a combination of dice-like artifacts or with the observation of a natural factor. There are many options, really.

* Elrin: Give him a personality. Even the the Jewish god has a personality, and while the Christian and Muslim ones are more ethereal, they make it up with Jesus and Mohamed, who also had strong personalities. A way to do it is going primitive and creating a sort of genealogy.
First associate the god with a primitive phenomena/domain, like fire, shelter/protection, fertility, thunder, rain, (an) animal(s), the sea, pestilence, natural order, a patriarch, death, etc. Then go start giving that god more power, evolving the myth, until it becomes the sole god. In the end you will have a god that does cover all, but that has a distinct personality and perhaps even representation (a paternalistic and furious gods that punishes humanity for its excesses, receiving sacrifices; a protective god that intercedes for everyone one that prays for him, being worshipped specially during births; an absent god that only visits its children in the hour of death, and thus judgement; an evil god that is worshipped in order to redirect natural disasters to the enemies, and be spared; a powerful god that demands their children to live up to his image, proving themselves in combat/arts).

* The Taint: It is very similar to the Original Sin. It could be, alternatively, a corruption inherent to the universe, instead of a rebellion against Elrin. Being so, humanity/the Delmai move from "guilty cursed" to "self-victimized corrupter", for example. The taint is a hole they fell in, and repentance is the only way to save themselves from it. Unfortunately it is a vicious cycle, and past a certain point corruption can be considered complete. But... there is always a but, and myths and legends come out of them...

If you like the ideas, feel free to use them, and to discard them if you don't.  ;)
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Indirik

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #22: September 22, 2011, 09:58:03 PM »
That's what you get in a monotheistic religion, one true and perfect God.
This is common, but not required. But Elrism's one, true god just happens to have some (most?) of the same qualities attributed to the Christian God. This is not a criticism, it's an observation. And one of the similarities you asked me to provide.

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And as in every religion of BM, serve God well and receive salvation and eternal life in the presence of God.
Not true. Not even entirely true on Dwilight. For example, Sanguis Astroism makes no claims to there being an afterlife, or that you get to bask in the light of the Stars for ever after.

Torenism, also makes no claim that everyone who serves Tor gets to spend forever after in the company of Tor. Only those who perform legendary service to Tor get to live in Tor's heaven. "It is reserved for only the smallest number of most honorable and strong nobles who die - typically heroic kings, prophets, and those who have brought Tor to hundreds of thousands of people."

So far as I know, Cordatus Bestiarium makes no claims of the afterlife, either.

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Angels are the messengers of God, to carry out God's will, including shepherding humanity. But from what I know, God never banned the angels from Heaven. But correct me if I'm wrong.
All of them? No. But wasn't the devil supposed to be one of God's angels that he cast out of heaven? (At least in some versions that I've seen...)

Quote
To me it seems Pelgart wanted to create an antagonist of Elrin. And it would be illogical for Elrin to create powerful deities to be His enemy. So, he created powerful shepherds who became power hungry in the absence of Elrin, and upon His return He cast them out, subsequently creating the antagonist. Good RP if you ask me.
Yes, I agree, it was an interesting way to do it.

You're taking my points and casting them in a light that I did not intend. I did not mean to say that this religion is dumb, or ridiculous, or poorly conceived. That's not what I said at all.

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In every religion you see that those who acted contrary to God's bidding will seek out priests to make amends for their sins.
Again, not true. There are plenty of fictional religions in which this is not done, as the person's relationship with their god is more personal, and doesn't require a priest as a go-between.

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From such a point of view, every earthly monotheistic religions are strikingly similar to Christianity, and that alone would make your criticism moot.
If you're going to dismiss everything I say as pointless, then why did you even bother asking for my opinion?
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Indirik

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #23: September 22, 2011, 10:13:48 PM »
SA has no afterlife?
There have been theological debates about it. Some say it does. Some don't really worry about it.

In this way Sanguis Astroism is more of an evolving religion. It is not a religion that just suddenly appears in the game, fully-formed, with a complete mythology and an Explanation For Everything.
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Indirik

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #24: September 22, 2011, 10:22:03 PM »
You want your religion to last for more than 1 week? While it would be interesting, I believe you create aversion against your religion. For that reason I also don't believe Cordatus Bestiarium will ever become successful.
So then you're only interested in creating bland religions that won't offend anyone, rather than interesting religions that create conflict and interesting stories?

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I don't believe the bible mentions Lucifer as Satan, or as angel for that matter.
The bible doesn't mention a lot of things. That doesn't mean that the followers of the religions based on the bible don't consider it to be part of their faith. There's a lot more to Christianity than the Bible.

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Another reason not to follow SA, they do not even offer you salvation.
If your faith wants to offer salvation, then it also has to promise damnation for those that are not saved. If your religion doesn't threaten damnation, then what is there to grant them salvation from?
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vonGenf

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #25: September 22, 2011, 10:23:31 PM »
Another reason not to follow SA, they do not even offer you salvation.

If the Stars want you around, they'll keep you around. Call it an incentive to make yourself useful.

And it's not like we can absolutely say there is no afterlife either. We're just waiting for someone to come back and tell the tale....
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Meneldur

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #26: September 22, 2011, 10:32:45 PM »
To say that SA has no afterlife belief would be inaccurate; most of the priesthood at least believes in a form of reincarnation mentioned in Mathurin's writings (although the form in which we return can be debated). However this belief is hardly an important one; the "salvation" of SA is enlightenment gained by achieving balance between the Bloodstars which impacts and is accomplished in this life.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 10:34:21 PM by Meneldur »

Geronus

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #27: September 22, 2011, 11:17:48 PM »
You want your religion to last for more than 1 week? While it would be interesting, I believe you create aversion against your religion. For that reason I also don't believe Cordatus Bestiarium will ever become successful.

I have to agree with Indirik on this one. Look at the Blood Cult. Widely despised, but it was well developed and drove some great storylines, didn't it?

As for my idea, here are some interesting evolutions of it just to toss off as some examples of creativity and a departure from the norm:

  • The church actually attempts to placate their god by doing things that they believe will please him, i.e. inflicting cruelty, spreading chaos, etc., believing that if he delights in their actions he will not choose them to be his victims.
  • The church actively seek their god's favor by doing the above, in the belief that he will reward them if they please him.
  • The church believes that their god created monsters and undead to plague Man, and actively seeks a means to destroy him or end his meddling in the mortal realm (sort of like MP).
  • The church opposes their god  by actively seeking to undo his mischief, spreading peace, order, charity and justice wherever possible
  • The church believes that as their god is selfish and base and created Men in his image, so should Man emulate their creator and get as much out of life as possible, not matter what the cost to others. Greed is good, as are lust, gluttony and every other vice.

You see? Take one unorthodox or intriguing idea, then brainstorm and see where it goes. You need not start from someplace familiar. Far from it, in fact.

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Re: Elrism
« Reply #28: September 23, 2011, 12:05:53 AM »
Congratulations Pelgart. I'm fond of any religion that encourages it's followers to become all crazy and religious ;)
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Re: Elrism
« Reply #29: September 23, 2011, 12:11:56 AM »
I refer you to Torenism for an example of a very well fleshed out monotheistic religion. While it borrows a number of terms from Christianity (e.g. Messiah), the connotations are very different, and the cosmology is a major departure.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Torenism

Messiah is a Jewish term, we Christians just stole it since we are a derivative of the Jewish faith. For  long time Christianity existed as a Jewish sect, the primary point of difference was mainstream jewish faith was still waiting for the Messiah, while the Christian Sect believed the promise had been fulfilled in Jesus.
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