Author Topic: What realm should I join?  (Read 33758 times)

Chenier

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #15: September 24, 2011, 10:40:35 PM »
Enweil - Once a huge power on BT, overthrowing governments with their awesome military power to establish democracies and republics, but they've hit harder times since the last invasion.  Contrary to a certain person's propaganda, they were starting to weaken militarily pre-Invasion as well.  Not sure on the status of their RP.

Between the third and fourth-invasion, Enweil held off a gang-bang from Mesh, Hetland, Sint, and Heen, all while worrying about their southern border with Riombara. They had also succeeded in bringing Riombara down to nothing but their capital before the gang-bang occured, and then when they fought again, they had managed to penetrate deep in Dominion of Alluran lands after this realm sided with Riombara against Enweil. When fighting against Riombara, in all of this period, Riombaran and Alluran troops fought Enweil in Enweil's lands only once or twice, as opposed to the countless battles in Riombaran lands. Enweil's total CS was also continuously increasing during these periods. So despite what some people like to fool themselves with, Enweil was quite a military power in the fourth age. Not so much right now, though. Very little RP.

Fronen -  The Old Man of Beluaterra, Fronen was also once a military might, but the Invasion had seen many of their allies crushed into dust or switching sides when leaders change.  They had the misfortune to have had a leader who lacked any and all tact before old enemies charged against Fronen.  From my understanding, they once had a bit of RP, but don't know about now.  They certainly have opportunity for it.

"Old Man"? The hell? The new Fronen has nothing at all to do with the old Fronen, except for the name. I've been part of both, and very involved in the creation of the second version from behind the scenes. All of the old Fronen nobles went to Rio and stayed there when people from Avalon "recreated" the realm. This new realm started quite small and it took a lot of time and battles for it to increase in might. They started with Vur Hagin as their biggest and only city, and that goes to say a lot. No idea on how RP is in there nowadays.

Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na - IVF, aka Enweil, Jr. or Enweil West, is supposedly a theocracy.  No idea what faith they are.  RP is also unknown.

Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na, or Fheuv'n, was born from the secession of Iato from Enweil when Riombara stated it would declare war on Enweil. Basically, it is made-up of the more active Enweilian nobles of the time who felt they were being muzzled by a risk-averse initiative-lacking oligarchy, plus the new nobles that were recruited to the duchy during the preparation phase prior to the secession. It was founded with clear religious doctrine, but no official in-game religion, because 1) there's none to my liking and 2) there's no reason one would have to use IG religions over purely RP-ed religions. Since the secession, we have also established different rules and laws to distinguish ourselves, measures we could not take as a duchy in Enweil. The general theme is cossack-based, and we have the Creed of the Cossacks that all government members must swear to prior to running for office, but it's more of a tool for RP than a strict set of rule forcing everyone to RP their nobles as the cossacks of the real world lived. There are also laws on religions, with a long list of banned faiths, but overall the realm is still rather new and many things have yet to be determined. As for "jr.", while it is true that we are much smaller than Enweil in terms of land, in our joint attack against Fwuvoghor our army was actually superior to Enweil's, having reached 7000 mobile CS for 14 nobles from 7 regions. Our military might is almost always superior to Nothoi's, a realm slightly larger, with wealthier regions and a much bigger city. Indeed, when we fought there, we crushed them. We are also a realm that believes a lot in looting. However, two separate bugs have prevented us from doing any of it in both of our campaigns. I am quite eager for this to be fixed... There are no "council" message group, so everything that is shared is shared with everyone. There aren't many messages tagged as RPs, but there are several people involved in developing a unique culture for the realm.

Income averages out at about 115 gold per nobles, usually going around 90-100 gold or so for nobles aligned to rurals. We also have many adjacent rogue regions that we plan on expanding to.

Furthermore, we have declared a jihad on Sint and Riombara, the former also bringing us to war against Nothoi (which we fought) and Old Grehk (which we didn't). I don't see any peace for Fheuv'n until the next invasion, which will likely bring us different kinds of fighting. We are allied to Enweil (which combined with the blight offers us good cover) and Fronen.

Obviously there's going to be some bias, but there's still more than a grain of truth hidden in it. I'm just looking at general trends that everyone's agreeing on.
The wiki, I've found, is basically hopelessly out of date, especially for Beluaterra.

Indeed, our wiki was intentionally a stub because we wanted to remain discrete as we dealt with the crazy rogue spawns from when we seceded and then built up an army. Haven't had the time to fill it up since our diplomatic stances were revealed.
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Draco Tanos

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #16: September 24, 2011, 11:07:26 PM »
* Draco Tanos rubs his temples.

I was making a comparison between Fronen and the WWI-era Ottoman Empire (albeit, they were callled the Sick Old Man of Europe).  Both once large, powerful, and though hated -- respected.  Now they are a collapsing shadow of what they once were.

Chenier

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #17: September 24, 2011, 11:32:45 PM »
* Draco Tanos rubs his temples.

I was making a comparison between Fronen and the WWI-era Ottoman Empire (albeit, they were callled the Sick Old Man of Europe).  Both once large, powerful, and though hated -- respected.  Now they are a collapsing shadow of what they once were.

I don't see how the condition applies.

Fronen was never as large as it was prior to this war. In which they haven't lost all that much.

Further, they weren't very much liked prior to the invasion anyways, many indeed hated them already. I would even go as to say that Fronen has never been as much liked as it is today. Fronen's ruler is showing that he does care for his allies, something the previous rulers of Fronen really failed at. Enweil, and now Fheuv'n, have never had as many reasons to like Fronen as they do now, because Fronen was always doing its own thing and thinking of nothing but itself. Granted, the terms of peace offered to it are ridiculous, but they are nonetheless showing solidarity for her allies. A first that does not pass unnoticed.

Fronen's growth is a recent phenomenon, they never reached such mights before, and they are still holding out pretty well. I do not see how the comparison fits in any way.
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Draco Tanos

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #18: September 24, 2011, 11:34:19 PM »
Of course you don't.

Go back to your own world, Chenier.

Chenier

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #19: September 24, 2011, 11:37:39 PM »
Of course you don't.

Go back to your own world, Chenier.

May as well compare Thalmarkin to the Soviet Empire. Because, you know, it's cold?

Your comparison was poor.
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D`Este

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #20: September 25, 2011, 12:05:44 AM »
I have to say Chenier, it's always fun to read your version of the truth.

Chenier

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #21: September 25, 2011, 12:46:43 AM »
I have to say Chenier, it's always fun to read your version of the truth.

Which aspects diverge from your version?

I argument my views, at least, unlike some. It's easy to claim, for example, that Enweil was a declining military power. But then one would have to support such a statement, because decline and military power are both relative and subjective.

When I say that I think Riombara is outmatched by Enweil+Fheuv'n, I give arguments. Historical, geographical, and economical. For example, Enweil came to a hair of successfully pulling it off in the last age is a historical argument. Geographically, Riombara as a lot of fortified chokepoints that make it a tough nut to crack. But once cracked, it will then be the one that has to worry about attacks and harassment on two fronts, instead of Enweil. Economically, if I look at the stats page, it looks that if we ignore what appears to have been a big investment quite recently, Enweil and Riombara now have access to equivalent amounts of gold. However, Fheuv'n breaks this equation, tipping it in favor of Enweil. However, the greatest economical aspect of that war is food: Fheuv'n has thousands of bushels it doesn't know what to do with, and Enweil is more than secure with food herself. Riombara, on the other hand, has by my calculations a food surplus equivalent to more or less two rurals' worth. Past this point, it becomes a food deficit. Kuugl is adjacent to Enweil, breaking its production or making it revolt would simply require Fheuv'n and Enweil to join forces and attack it, a rather simple task. leaving the equivalent of 1 rural to be dealt with to remove the surplus, which can either be done by focusing on a single region or spreading out on many, such as the isles. Note that if looting had not been bugged, Fheuv'n would have already dealt significant damage to Riombara's food-producing islands. We had a few days before battles occurred, and could have easily avoided the Riombaran troops longer.

Riombara has a strong military, good movement rates, and very defensible choke points. But its economy is still inferior to her enemies', and her food balance is fragile and requires careful management of population growth. That is why I believe that Rio will continue to give one hell of a fight, but that as soon as her enemies score significant hits, it'll be a irreversible decline. Enweil and Fheuv'n just need the north to stay out of it long enough for them to reach this point, as once it is reached, even if Rio is still alive, then could then deal with the far-away northerners and continue their progress against Rio.
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Lorgan

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #22: September 25, 2011, 01:30:14 AM »
You're right, this isn't an easy war for Riombara, Enweil and IVF can also both run higher taxes in their regions due to smaller size. But well, Fronen may have created a 3 region city/mountain front, but I don't think that they'll be able to hold that much longer. The chokepoint front they created can quickly turn against them.

But looting hasn't only affected IVF. Vur Hagin could've been burned to the ground numerous times if Thalmarkin wanted (that's a big if though) and looting worked. Melhed would be getting an empty shell of a region with Jyl if we could've looted. Since it switched to OG, it has basically become an outpost for us, we've had an army there frequently and practically unopposed, right next to Fronen's capital. With nothing to do but destroy some military infrastructure.

Anyway, back to the point, Enweil did suffer some serious military defeats towards the end of the war, sure they were still powerful but things did start to look grim when the invasion kicked in. I also wouldn't call it a gangbang if you've got allies fighting for you as well. The word gangbang is used way too easily in my opinion, and often a "gangbang" is even necessary when fighting a powerhouse like Fronen or Enweil. People should see it as a compliment.

Chenier

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #23: September 25, 2011, 02:02:38 AM »
You're right, this isn't an easy war for Riombara, Enweil and IVF can also both run higher taxes in their regions due to smaller size. But well, Fronen may have created a 3 region city/mountain front, but I don't think that they'll be able to hold that much longer. The chokepoint front they created can quickly turn against them.

Indeed, it is a race against time. To do significant damage against Riombara before the north does significant damage against Fronen.

But looting hasn't only affected IVF. Vur Hagin could've been burned to the ground numerous times if Thalmarkin wanted (that's a big if though) and looting worked. Melhed would be getting an empty shell of a region with Jyl if we could've looted. Since it switched to OG, it has basically become an outpost for us, we've had an army there frequently and practically unopposed, right next to Fronen's capital. With nothing to do but destroy some military infrastructure.

No, but the north can actually do takeovers, which Fheuv'n cannot. A brutal takeover can be quite damage on its own, without any looting. You've also got large quantities of militia you can focus on killing in the meanwhile, we do not. Before our attack, Fwuvoghor had like 2k worth of militia only. And Vur Hagin only offers a small percentage of Fronen's income, while Ajitmon, Cjelegy, and Avengmil produce a large portion of Riombara's food production. Furthermore, Fheuv'n suffered heavy casualties to access these regions, our mobile army got completely decimated on the expectation that looting would eventually be turned back on. We lost all of our forces for nothing. Our attack required looting to be worth it, while the costs of any northern attack is quite smaller, especially considering that the trip from your capital to the targets is both shorter and safer.

Anyway, back to the point, Enweil did suffer some serious military defeats towards the end of the war, sure they were still powerful but things did start to look grim when the invasion kicked in. I also wouldn't call it a gangbang if you've got allies fighting for you as well. The word gangbang is used way too easily in my opinion, and often a "gangbang" is even necessary when fighting a powerhouse like Fronen or Enweil. People should see it as a compliment.

The seriousness of these defeats was exaggerated and due to poor movement rates or coordination. The biggest defeat, which set the tone of the propaganda thereafter imo, was the defeat in DoA lands, where we had a strategical advantage but called off our forces at the last minute because of the declaration that the invasion was coming. The armies pulled back in waves, and was slaughtered by the enemy forces. However, had it not been for that declaration, we were preparing to loot Alluran's core regions heavily and cripple their military capacity, as we had significantly superior numbers and were going to force them to attack us instead of the other way around. The other big defeat was in Mio Dupaki, where smaller forces attacked by "squeezing through the heavily overcrowded siege engines" and with horrible formations. However, you will note that Riombara boasts of no victory following this. All the battles were occuring in enemy lands, and they were happening deeper and deeper in enemy lands. Someone who is winning a war won't be fighting in his own regions, imo. Also, is Rio was fairing a little better at the end, it is because Alluran declared war, and Enweil considered Alluran to be, by far, the easiest target, and therefore decided to focus fully on Alluran to wipe them out first.

And do consider that war isn't just about battles. Riombara, for example, mostly pulls back whenever they deem they risk losing. Allows them to keep a "better" slate and boast about a better win/loss ratio. However, this win/loss ratio is completely meaningless. When I commanded Enweil's forces, I didn't really give a damn about win/loss ratios. My objective was to destroy Riombara. And destroying Riombara won't be done by simply having a good w/l ratio. Since battles do damage to the regions they are in, I preferred having a minor defeat in enemy lands than a minor victory in my own lands. *Especially* since staying put for this minor defeat typically meant I had extra time for looting, which we did extensively, in addition to causing enough attrition to the Riombaran army to prevent them from fielding a significant force for a counter-attack (as there were always enough stragglers in the Enweilian army to form a considerable second line of defense). It was a war of attrition, and let me tell you that despite such defeats, production always dropped quite rapidly in the regions we've attacked. In the Dominion, for example, they had to do investments to counter our damage. So what did we do? We sent a few lone units to loot that region that had just been invested in. They'll boast that they quickly killed the troops, but I'll tell you that these troops succeeded in totally ruining the investment that they had done, and the financial losses they caused were worth many times how much it costs to recruit these lost soldiers.

Riombara boasted in similar manners at the beginning of the first war, because it was very difficult for Enweil to launch any attacks against their heavily fortified positions. It only really stopped by the time Riombara was down to 3 regions or so, really, that they realized that despite their occasional victories, they truly were losing the war. Imo, the post-gangbang war was the same thing. They'd fool themselves by boasting their w/l ration, why Enweil maintained and increased her economical superiority. In their defense, though, our attacks were focused against Alluran at the end, so it was harder for them to see the scale of the damage inflicted.

All in all, I don't consider Enweil's win/loss ratio to have been any different prior to the invasion than during the similar phase of the first part of that war.

Keep in mind that I only talk about Riombara's war on Enweil pre and post gang-bang. The West's war against Enweil was a different story: we had a perfect record in defending against them because of their poor coordination until I went camping for a week, then it was for Enweil defeat after defeat until peace treaties were signed
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Sypher

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #24: September 25, 2011, 09:37:35 AM »
I don't think the comparison works very well because Fronen being the largest realm was fairly short lived. Fronen was a moderate sized realm during and immediately after the invasion. Fronen's growth to become the largest realm in Beluaterra came from Bara'khur falling apart. Western Bara'khur became Nothoi, while eastern Bara'khur joined Fronen leaving just the Dyomoque duchy left as part of Bara'khur. Fronen took over Dyomoque right before the war broke out which put a damper on plans for the area.

Regarding RP:
Fronen doesn't have a lot of realm wide discussion/RP. Most of the intrigue happens in the Senate and in other smaller circles. For the average knight, it can be a bit on the quiet side. But, historically it has been fairly easy to become a lord or gain a council position for those that put in a little effort.

Geronus

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #25: September 26, 2011, 01:11:04 AM »
Yes , little RP but lots of intrigue at the moment. Fronen is definitely the realm that has me most engaged at the moment, but it might take a little while for a newcomer to climb into a place in the power structure where they can effectively take part.

DoctorHarte

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #26: September 29, 2011, 06:11:58 PM »
Obviously there's going to be some bias, but there's still more than a grain of truth hidden in it. I'm just looking at general trends that everyone's agreeing on.
The wiki, I've found, is basically hopelessly out of date, especially for Beluaterra.

Something needs to be done!  >:( Ill update some share of the IVF wiki soon, maybe a bit of Fronen's but I won't be there for long.

With this new estate system I can guarantee IVF will be expanding and we would love to have you come along! haha I guess you could say war is a general trend on Beluaterra right now.
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Chenier

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #27: September 29, 2011, 06:20:13 PM »
Everyone offers war, but Fheuv'n offers you deep hatred of the enemy too!
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Anaris

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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #28: September 29, 2011, 07:11:36 PM »
Everyone offers war, but Fheuv'n offers you deep hatred of the enemy too!

And instant bans, too!  ;D
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Re: What realm should I join?
« Reply #29: September 29, 2011, 07:44:52 PM »
And instant bans, too!  ;D

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