Author Topic: Cavalry charges  (Read 6333 times)

Velax

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • House de Vere
    • View Profile
Cavalry charges
« Topic Start: March 08, 2011, 04:18:46 PM »
I was wondering, are hits from cavalry charges distributed differently than hits from other unit types? During a recent battle between Perdan and Aix on the East continent (where I fought on the Perdan side), a large number of Aix cavalry (some 350) seemed to waste a lot of hits through concentrating on one unit each, rather than distributing hits amongst several enemy units as is normally the case. In fact, of the 10 cavalry units that charged (from both sides), only 1 scored hits on more than a single enemy unit.

The most obvious example is this:

Arrakis Heavy Cavalry (4) score 4191 hits on SADA's Brewmasters (35) that scored 55 casualties (the entire Brewmaster unit).

Lesser examples:

Knights of Cymru (8) score 2832 hits on PMW - Zoomer Frame Riders (31) that scored 57 casualties (the entire unit)
Mounted Death (25) score 1169 hits on Holy Chargers (6) that scored 25 casualties (also the entire unit)

Using the average number of hits it took to cause a casualty during that battle (roughly 39), the Arrakis Heavy Cavalry scored less than half the number of casualties it could have. Is this something specific to cavalry charges? If so, it seems to significantly lessen the entire point of using cavalry.

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry charges
« Reply #1: March 08, 2011, 04:59:52 PM »
There's a big difference between charging across the field at a line of enemies and crashing into them, and standing and fighting against enemies all around you.

However, it's possible that the distribution could be looked at a little.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

fodder

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry charges
« Reply #2: March 08, 2011, 05:16:31 PM »
is it affected by formation? for that matter... any type of troops in melee combat, not just cav...
firefox

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry charges
« Reply #3: March 08, 2011, 06:28:43 PM »
Also, you have to look at it this way: Hits are not apportioned so that you do just enough to a guy to kill him, then move on to the next guy. If you hit one guy with 5 lances, five guys aren't going to drop dead just because one guy took enough damage to kill five men.

That Arrakis Heavy Cavalry unit had 63 men in it. The SADA's Brewmasters unit they hit had 61. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume a 1-1 targeting from a cav charge to a line of soldiers. The SADA's Brewmasters were completely wiped out by that charge, and the cav unit only took 10 casualties.

Cav units tend to be smaller than infantry units due to expense and the fact that it's hard to be able to command a huge cavalry unit.  That means they are going to tend to only damage one or two units at a time, unless their enemy has a lot of small units.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Velax

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • House de Vere
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry charges
« Reply #4: March 08, 2011, 06:42:23 PM »
I get the IC rationale for it - that one lance can't pierce five guys at the same time. But cavalry are expensive to recruit and maintain and the main benefit from that is they do extra hits on a charge. If you lessen that by wasting half those hits, then what's the point of recruiting cavalry?

Quote
Cav units tend to be smaller...That means they are going to tend to only damage one or two units at a time, unless their enemy has a lot of small units.

That makes sense, but doesn't actually seem to happen in battle. The only cavalry unit that hit more than one enemy unit in the initial charge was by far the smallest one. And there were a number of examples of smaller infantry units (15-30 men) hitting more than one enemy unit.

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry charges
« Reply #5: March 08, 2011, 07:24:25 PM »
Well, the point would be that in one charge, that 63 man cav unit completely obliterated an enemy infantry unit that had 55 men in it, while only taking 10 casualties in return. (My original count was a bit off. The enemy inf started with 61, but lost some before the cav hit it.) That just doesn't happen if you would have had a 63-man infantry unit.

  • ( 8 ) hit (31), 65 cav and 60 cav.
  • (6) hit (32) and (25), 28 cav hitting 66 inf and 62 cav
  • (3) hit (23), 42 cav and 55 inf
  • (4) hit (35), 63 cav and 55 inf
  • (5) hit (42), 41 cav and 55MI
  • (1) hit (36), 48 cav and 39 inf
  • (2) hit (30), 36 cav and 91 inf
  • (18) hit (22), 24 cav and 66 inf

The only thing that looks odd in there is the one you pointed out, where that small cav unit hit two separate units. I *think* this is because unit (32) was fighting two units at once from the previous round of battle. Therefore, only a small amount of it was available to be hit by the charging cav, forcing a part of the cav to find another victim.

It should also be pointed out that the Arrakis Heavy Cavalry is the infamous Black Knights RC in Aix, that is pretty much the *best* cav center in the entire game. It is capable of generating an absolutely insane number of hits. I remember when King Sangue of Perdan blockaded Isadril by himself with 77 Black Knights, while the Perdan army went home to refit. He just rode back and forth and wiped out several units that tried to get past him.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry charges
« Reply #6: March 08, 2011, 07:26:26 PM »
And, having said that, I have to admit that I am only a little bit aware of how the combat system picks its targets. Anaris is the only one that understands that little bit, as he was the one that wrote it. I just don't see anything in those numbers I posted that would make me think "That's a bug...".
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Sacha

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1410
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry charges
« Reply #7: March 08, 2011, 07:35:18 PM »
Cavalry, and especially heavy cavalry, don't rely on lances alone to kill. An armored horse is basically a medieval tank capable of trampling all but the heaviest foot soldiers. If you get hit by a horse covered in steel plates going 25 mph, you're not gonna get up for a while.

Foundation

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Okay... you got me
    • View Profile
    • White Halmos
Re: Cavalry charges
« Reply #8: March 08, 2011, 08:07:21 PM »
Wrong:
Infantry/MI/SF in close combat distribute across all their targets, cavalry do not.  I will look into it later, but that's the way it stood when I added equal distribution as I stated on the TattleMaster a while back.

See my post below
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 08:23:21 PM by Foundation »
The above is accurate 25% of the time, truthful 50% of the time, and facetious 100% of the time.

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry charges
« Reply #9: March 08, 2011, 08:12:40 PM »
Cavalry, and especially heavy cavalry, don't rely on lances alone to kill. An armored horse is basically a medieval tank capable of trampling all but the heaviest foot soldiers. If you get hit by a horse covered in steel plates going 25 mph, you're not gonna get up for a while.

Well, yes, I understand that. But that's not really relevant to the point.

Cavalry units can, and often do, take out more enemy soldiers in a single charge than there are mounted knights in the charge. And no other unit type in the game can, in one round, kill as many soldiers as they have men themselves. How many rounds would two 60-man infantry units have to wail on each other to wipe one of them out? 6? 10? Yet a 60-man cavalry charge can easily wipe out a 60-man heavy infantry unit in one charge, taking minor damage, just like happened in that battle. And the SADA Brewmasters are not light infantry either. That RC is 85/65. We're talking very well-armed, and pretty nicely armored soldiers.

I just can't look at that charge and think "You know, those hits should have been spread out farther and killed more men."

Edit: Added quote, since Foundation snuck a reply in there....
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

egamma

  • Guest
Re: Cavalry charges
« Reply #10: March 08, 2011, 08:16:11 PM »
Formations can play a big role. A cavalry unit charging as a wedge, will do more damage to a skirmish/line formation, and less to a box formation. At the same time, the box unit should do less damage to the wedge.

Foundation

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Okay... you got me
    • View Profile
    • White Halmos
Re: Cavalry charges
« Reply #11: March 08, 2011, 08:26:40 PM »
Cavalry behave in exactly the same way as infantry/MI/SF in close combat.  They merely have a charge advantage in power.

I was curious so rather than going to class... :P
The above is accurate 25% of the time, truthful 50% of the time, and facetious 100% of the time.