Author Topic: Are infiltrators honorable?  (Read 4773 times)

Passeri

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Are infiltrators honorable?
« Topic Start: October 07, 2011, 03:14:16 AM »
In a discussion about laws and execution of infiltrators I'm getting some pushback by other characters saying that infiltrators should be treated as just as honorable as every other class.

The thing is that I was under the impression that infiltrators walk a dishonorable path not meant to be flaunted. Especially as the wiki says stuff like, "there is no honor in taking such a path", "All the actions of an Infiltrator are illegal and dangerous", and "Paranoia, danger and silence - such is the world of the infiltrator." I rather was not expecting a bunch of people to get up and say that infils should be treated with the same respect as cavs and that we certainly should not execute them.

Having a good ic debate is great and I appreciate that the culture of this realm is very tolerant of their infils... but I thought I was taking a reasonable stance for the game and I don't want to unknowingly be a bad guy. Are infiltrators to be treated with the same respect as a courtier or a knight?

JPierreD

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #1: October 07, 2011, 03:38:45 AM »
Two of my nobles consider Infils highly dishonorable, and the other one does not mind them, as long as they don't stab her. :P

I personally consider that sub-class more on the fantasy part of the game, so whatever works for me.
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De-Legro

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #2: October 07, 2011, 03:42:58 AM »
In a discussion about laws and execution of infiltrators I'm getting some pushback by other characters saying that infiltrators should be treated as just as honorable as every other class.

The thing is that I was under the impression that infiltrators walk a dishonorable path not meant to be flaunted. Especially as the wiki says stuff like, "there is no honor in taking such a path", "All the actions of an Infiltrator are illegal and dangerous", and "Paranoia, danger and silence - such is the world of the infiltrator." I rather was not expecting a bunch of people to get up and say that infils should be treated with the same respect as cavs and that we certainly should not execute them.

Having a good ic debate is great and I appreciate that the culture of this realm is very tolerant of their infils... but I thought I was taking a reasonable stance for the game and I don't want to unknowingly be a bad guy. Are infiltrators to be treated with the same respect as a courtier or a knight?

You hit the nail on the head, its going to come down to the culture of the realm. Ask yourself this question though, if Infiltrators are so dishonorable, why does the Judge still take a honour hit when they execute them? I've been a infiltrator on many different islands, deportation seems to be far more common a punishment then execution.
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Sacha

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #3: October 07, 2011, 03:46:24 AM »
Those honor hits don't always make sense. You lose H/P stealing a unique off an adventurer too, and who the !@#$ cares about adventurers?

Norrel

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #4: October 07, 2011, 03:52:24 AM »
I treat infiltrators with disdain, and if I were to make one of my characters become one, he would hide it from basically everyone.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #5: October 07, 2011, 03:53:12 AM »
And you can gain honour by burn/rape/killing too.  Goes down to realm culture, and Arcaea has been home to disproportionate numbers of infiltrators for years. 

May have something to do with the King being a former infiltrator, which is common knowledge at least in-realm, not to mention there being an infil-centric religion and infiltrators being key factors in Arcaea winning several wars.
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Passeri

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #6: October 07, 2011, 04:34:14 AM »
And you can gain honour by burn/rape/killing too.  Goes down to realm culture, and Arcaea has been home to disproportionate numbers of infiltrators for years. 

May have something to do with the King being a former infiltrator, which is common knowledge at least in-realm, not to mention there being an infil-centric religion and infiltrators being key factors in Arcaea winning several wars.

Wow. I really wish I had known that. And here I just thought it was a fun realm.

Chenier

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #7: October 07, 2011, 04:36:41 AM »
The realms I've played in typically had great respect for infiltrators, because of the courage they had to take the risks they do, the scary mastery they have of the blade, and their incredible usefulness in warfare.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #8: October 07, 2011, 04:59:30 AM »
Wow. I really wish I had known that. And here I just thought it was a fun realm.

Well, I think it is a fun realm... :)  It just has an interesting history with infiltrators.  Most of the Far East is quite different, and one peace treaty, several prisoner treaties, and at least one war were heavily effected by other realms not looking kindly on Arcaea's infiltrator beliefs.
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BardicNerd

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #9: October 07, 2011, 10:59:55 PM »
Well, I think it is a fun realm... :)  It just has an interesting history with infiltrators.  Most of the Far East is quite different, and one peace treaty, several prisoner treaties, and at least one war were heavily effected by other realms not looking kindly on Arcaea's infiltrator beliefs.
In particular, Zonasa . . . strongly dislikes infiltrators.  In public anyways.

If a Zonasa were publicly known to have done infil stuff, they will have a rather hard time in the realm (and Erandi may try to get them banned).  Of course, it's an open secret that several important figures or relations of important figures probably are infils themselves, so there you are.  All about deniability.

Geronus

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #10: October 11, 2011, 06:06:49 AM »
If they're enemy infiltrators then they're murderous scum, no better than a common brigand. I have a ruler who took this stance recently. The other ruler tried defending them. It was fun to be ridiculously hardline about it. I think I used the words murderer and murderous about twenty times during that debate... Basically as often as humanly possible.

On the other hand if they work for you they're nothing short of unsung heroes. That or complete screw ups.

Heq

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #11: October 18, 2011, 08:07:59 AM »
Arcachon kills every infiltrator it can get its hands on, Ciann will also let any other realm kill her infiltrators (and will recommend they do so).

They're like rats or religious toleration, you have to burn them out.

Chenier

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #12: October 18, 2011, 08:51:16 AM »
If they're enemy infiltrators then they're murderous scum, no better than a common brigand. I have a ruler who took this stance recently. The other ruler tried defending them. It was fun to be ridiculously hardline about it. I think I used the words murderer and murderous about twenty times during that debate... Basically as often as humanly possible.

On the other hand if they work for you they're nothing short of unsung heroes. That or complete screw ups.

We've always praised our own as heroes, and were more than happy to torture and execute others'.
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Shizzle

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Re: Are infiltrators honorable?
« Reply #13: October 18, 2011, 09:49:12 AM »
To provide some historical input:

"Medieval attitudes towards violence were based on a simple principle: decent people may fight, but they don't steal. Theft was dishonorable and, consequently, violence performed to enrich  oneself at the expense of a fellow person was dishonourable too. (...) At the local level, whenever a man used violence to appropriate his neighbor's goods, he ceased to be a respectable member of the community. Furthermore, to attack someone secretly, from behind or in the night, was disdainful, because it's motive, if not robbery, was akin to that of robbers. Hence the medieval legal distinction between murder and manslaughter, which defined the first not primarily by the criterion of premeditation, but by that of sneakiness. A case could be prosecuted as murder and lead to execution when the act had been particularly heinous, because it had been commited at night, without a warning, because the body had been hidden afterwards, or simply because the victim was a pregnant woman. (...) Murder, in the legal sense, was infamous, whereas open and public fighting, even when casually ensued, was honorific."

After Spierenburg P., A history of Murder: Personal Violence in Europe from the Middle Ages to the Present

I think we can clearly conclude that Infiltrators as portrayed in BM are not only dishonorable (at least in the parts of Europe covered by the book: Flanders, Northern Italy, France, England and Germany), but also unrealistic - according to this source.