Author Topic: Capital Succession?  (Read 7134 times)

Perth

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Re: Capital Succession?
« Reply #15: October 06, 2011, 07:49:41 AM »
The states that formed the Confederacy were classsed as seceding.  After the Confederacy was formed, the other states that left the Union to join the CSA also seceded.  To "change allegiance" one must secede first.

Not true, really.

The States that seceded from the Union already held the view that they themselves were already sovereign States who had freely chosen to be a part of the Union with the other States. When they decided to no longer wished to be a part of this Union, they left it, as a sovereign State would have the right to do. Then, they freely formed the Confederacy with other sovereign States. States that left the Union after the Confederacy was formed did so under the pretext that they were sovereign nations, and then they joined the C.S.A.

However, to "change allegiance" you not first secede. A knight certainly does not secede from the realm when he changes his allegiance to another Lord, nor does a Lord secede from the realm before he changes his allegiance to another Duke. Similarly, a Duke need not secede from the realm before he changes his allegiance to another Crown.

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Jens Namtrah

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Re: Capital Succession?
« Reply #16: October 06, 2011, 07:57:03 AM »
While this is technically possible, it would be an obvious abuse, and deliberate circumvention of game mechanics.

This is what happened during The Krimml Incident on EC a few years ago. Duke Alexi, duke of Krimml, the capital of Fontan, changed allegiance to Perdan, and immediately informed Perdan that he wasn't sticking around, he had just swapped allegiance to Perdan so that he could then secede. Perdan immediately banned him.  The player of Duke Alexi deleted his account the very next day, before any kind of Titans judgment could have been taken.

Interesting side note: At the time, the duchy of Krimml had 89 nobles that that became part of Perdan when the duchy changed over!

Interesting side note #2: After Fontan bought Krimml back from Perdan, the militia in the city stayed loyal to Perdan. It took Fontan nine days to finally beat all the militia and regain full control of the city.

Interesting side note #3: It was the longest period of peace and quiet in Fontan's history. We informed Perdan we would refuse to take certain nobles from that group back unless they gave us an immediate, unconditional surrender.

Nearly worked.

Draco Tanos

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Re: Capital Succession?
« Reply #17: October 06, 2011, 12:15:44 PM »
Not true, really.

The States that seceded from the Union already held the view that they themselves were already sovereign States who had freely chosen to be a part of the Union with the other States. When they decided to no longer wished to be a part of this Union, they left it, as a sovereign State would have the right to do. Then, they freely formed the Confederacy with other sovereign States. States that left the Union after the Confederacy was formed did so under the pretext that they were sovereign nations, and then they joined the C.S.A.

However, to "change allegiance" you not first secede. A knight certainly does not secede from the realm when he changes his allegiance to another Lord, nor does a Lord secede from the realm before he changes his allegiance to another Duke. Similarly, a Duke need not secede from the realm before he changes his allegiance to another Crown.
The Founding Fathers actually did word it so that the States were sovereign, united a federation with each other in a republic known as the United States of America.  The old Articles of Confederation present this mindset most clearly.  The centeralized government of the federal system was strengthened when the Constitution was drafted, but many States, especially in the South, believed in States' Rights.  Even in the Civil War, most units were not under the mindset that they were American soldiers (on either side).  They were, rather, Georgian soldiers, New Yorker soldiers, Pennsylvanian soliders, Texan soliders.  We were, prior to the end of the Civil War, truly the united States of America.

I am digressing some, however. 

Even if the States did view themselves as sovereign (which they typically did, even in the North), the Union was just that:  A union of the States.  A federation.  As they were leaving the Union, they were seceding from it, no matter to be sovereign or join another polity.

And a secession is:

    The action of withdrawing formally from membership of a federation or body, esp. a political state

With how the feudal hierarchy works, even the most strict monarchy is a federation of nobles.  In history, the old Holy Roman Empire is a stellar example of that, being more of a confederation than a purely whole entity.

Within a polity, such as one of Battlemaster's realms, it is not secession.  If a knight joined another region within the Kingdom by swearing fidelity to a different Lord, at worst it would be oathbreaking .  At its best, the previous Lord would have consented to absolve the knight of his oath and it would be business as usual.  Either way, it's not secession as lands aren't changing hands, only a single Knight/person.  That'd be like me moving to Canada and getting made a citizen there.  I'm not seceding as I'm not bringing any property with me.  Not that I wouldn't be laughed at if I tried...  Now, if I declared my # acres sovereign, that'd be a secession.  I'd be laughed at and shot by the local police if I put up armed resistance, but it'd be a secession.

If a Lord left one duchy for another, it would be the same as above, though a little more murky due to the land changes.  Either way, if the oath was absolved and the lands granted to the neighboring duchy by the first Duke.  However, if the Lord instead changes to a Duchy that is outside the realm, then the Lord is seceding from his original realm.

The whole duchy thing in BM is one of the things I actually tend to dislike.  It forces an awkward artificial feeling political structure.  When you think of knights, do you think of them yelling "Halt in the name of the King!"  or  "Halt in the name of the Duke!"?  Don't get me wrong, even historically lords high and low held considerable power.  However in BM, the King just *feels* weaker than he should.  That's a whole other issue, however.

Forgive the rambling.  6am.  Up all night (as usual).  Need sleep.  Zzzzzzz
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 12:19:46 PM by Draco Tanos »

vonGenf

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Re: Capital Succession?
« Reply #18: October 06, 2011, 01:22:52 PM »
And a secession is:

    The action of withdrawing formally from membership of a federation or body, esp. a political state


This corresponds to the BM secession. As a Duke, you owe your loyalty to a ruler; that's the BM definition of Dukedom. By seceding, you recuse this allegiance; therefore you declare yourself a new ruler.

When you change allegiance, you recognize that your place, as a Duke, is below a ruler. However you no longer recognize a particular person as being a legitimate ruler. You transfer your loyalty to another person whom you consider more worthy. Since that other person already owns land, your land adds to theirs.

Quote
With how the feudal hierarchy works, even the most strict monarchy is a federation of nobles.  In history, the old Holy Roman Empire is a stellar example of that, being more of a confederation than a purely whole entity.

That's stretching the truth. The HRE worked as you say, yes; England and France didn't.

An historical example of secession is Robert de Bruce's revolt. He had sworn an oath of fealty to the Crown of England; at some point he rejected that oath and entered into rebellion, claiming the title of King of Scots, a title previously vacant.

An historical example of changing allegiance is the county of Flanders. Many count of Flanders starting with William I Clito (what an amazing name....) were designated by the Kings of France and Flanders was clearly a French county. This lasted until Charles Quint, whose family had acquired the county by marriage, united Flanders to other Low Countries, thus bringing it into the HRE; later it was given to Spain. There was never any King of Flanders.

 
Quote
Within a polity, such as one of Battlemaster's realms, it is not secession.  If a knight joined another region within the Kingdom by swearing fidelity to a different Lord, at worst it would be oathbreaking .  At its best, the previous Lord would have consented to absolve the knight of his oath and it would be business as usual.  Either way, it's not secession as lands aren't changing hands, only a single Knight/person.  That'd be like me moving to Canada and getting made a citizen there.  I'm not seceding as I'm not bringing any property with me.  Not that I wouldn't be laughed at if I tried...  Now, if I declared my # acres sovereign, that'd be a secession.  I'd be laughed at and shot by the local police if I put up armed resistance, but it'd be a secession.

In either secession or change of allegiance, no land changes hands. All the regions still belong to their Lords, and the Lord still controls the local police. If you try to take control of lands above yours, it's called a rebellion and it is completely different.

Quote
If a Lord left one duchy for another, it would be the same as above, though a little more murky due to the land changes.  Either way, if the oath was absolved and the lands granted to the neighboring duchy by the first Duke.  However, if the Lord instead changes to a Duchy that is outside the realm, then the Lord is seceding from his original realm.

Nonsense. There is no reason why the first Duke would be more or less allowed to give lands to a Duke who swears allegiance to a different King. Or - there would be many political reasons for that, but not feudal law reason.

After all it's a roleplaying game.

Indirik

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Re: Capital Succession?
« Reply #19: October 06, 2011, 04:34:40 PM »
Something similar happened with the formation of the Akadian League.  For whatever reason, you could change allegiance to another realm while not being in region but could only secede from your region, so he flipped to Arcachon then ran back and seceded.
Are you sure about that? I thought that Ethan needed more time to do a few things, or put the duchy in order before he was ready to secede. It wasn't that he wasn't in the region, but that he had to get out of OW, but wasn't ready to be his own realm.

During the war following the secession, we had a lord who wanted to swap allegiance. He even sent a rather long RP about cutting down his OW banners and hoisting League banners. Then five minutes later we get an OOC about "Wups... looks like I have to be in my own region to swap allegiance.... Can we just say I didn't send that last RP?"
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Perth

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Re: Capital Succession?
« Reply #20: October 06, 2011, 06:11:55 PM »
The Founding Fathers actually did word it so that the States were sovereign, united a federation with each other in a republic known as the United States of America.  The old Articles of Confederation present this mindset most clearly.  The centeralized government of the federal system was strengthened when the Constitution was drafted, but many States, especially in the South, believed in States' Rights.  Even in the Civil War, most units were not under the mindset that they were American soldiers (on either side).  They were, rather, Georgian soldiers, New Yorker soldiers, Pennsylvanian soliders, Texan soliders.  We were, prior to the end of the Civil War, truly the united States of America.

I am digressing some, however. 

Even if the States did view themselves as sovereign (which they typically did, even in the North), the Union was just that:  A union of the States.  A federation.  As they were leaving the Union, they were seceding from it, no matter to be sovereign or join another polity.

And a secession is:

    The action of withdrawing formally from membership of a federation or body, esp. a political state

With how the feudal hierarchy works, even the most strict monarchy is a federation of nobles.  In history, the old Holy Roman Empire is a stellar example of that, being more of a confederation than a purely whole entity.

Within a polity, such as one of Battlemaster's realms, it is not secession.  If a knight joined another region within the Kingdom by swearing fidelity to a different Lord, at worst it would be oathbreaking .  At its best, the previous Lord would have consented to absolve the knight of his oath and it would be business as usual.  Either way, it's not secession as lands aren't changing hands, only a single Knight/person.  That'd be like me moving to Canada and getting made a citizen there.  I'm not seceding as I'm not bringing any property with me.  Not that I wouldn't be laughed at if I tried...  Now, if I declared my # acres sovereign, that'd be a secession.  I'd be laughed at and shot by the local police if I put up armed resistance, but it'd be a secession.

If a Lord left one duchy for another, it would be the same as above, though a little more murky due to the land changes.  Either way, if the oath was absolved and the lands granted to the neighboring duchy by the first Duke.  However, if the Lord instead changes to a Duchy that is outside the realm, then the Lord is seceding from his original realm.

The whole duchy thing in BM is one of the things I actually tend to dislike.  It forces an awkward artificial feeling political structure.  When you think of knights, do you think of them yelling "Halt in the name of the King!"  or  "Halt in the name of the Duke!"?  Don't get me wrong, even historically lords high and low held considerable power.  However in BM, the King just *feels* weaker than he should.  That's a whole other issue, however.

Forgive the rambling.  6am.  Up all night (as usual).  Need sleep.  Zzzzzzz


Isn't this everything I JUST SAID to rebut what you said earlier, but lengthier?

Are you admitting you were wrong now and effectively reversing your opinion?

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Velax

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Re: Capital Succession?
« Reply #21: October 06, 2011, 09:27:08 PM »
Blather.

Rather than posting annoyingly long replies in an attempt to obfuscate your initial mistake, how about you just admit the fact that the terminology you were using was wrong in a Battlemaster context, which is the only context that matters given you were answering a Battlemaster-related question on the Battlemaster forum.