Sanguis Astroism

[Perth]

That it's a pisspot little backwater civil war is probably precisely why it was so bad. Everything was wrong about that crusade. The "enemy" had astroists, no astroists were being persecuted, the territories weren't worth anything to the church, the realm defended wasn't viable on its own, it was ingerence from northern realms in maroccidental affairs, it was slapping a foreign type of governance into republican territories, it was forcing a whole bunch of people to do stuff they didn't want to do when they had a ton of more important things to do, etc...

This.

The Crusade wasn't insignificant; it was a major watershed moment in the attitude and willingness of the Church to do things it hasn't ever done before. A Crusade against fellow Astroists, a Crusade into the Maroccidens, a Crusade into historically 'Moot territory, the purposeful helping of the overthrow of a Republican government to establish a Theocracy, a Crusade that didn't defend the faith, but instead used the faith as a sword for what looked like political ends. It was huge! Not to mention the Elders went through with this despite knowing their was huge opposition to it not only outside the Church, but among their own faithful and their own theocracies.


Like I've said before: I'm not anti-SA and I never really have been--not OOC, anyways. I love SA for what it is, which is an amazing religion for BM and for the SMA continent that has never been seen before in this game. However, SA decided to directly do something to bully my character, and thus he no longer has the more apathetic view of SA that he once had.

[Vellos]

Because of your last crusade, you next one is likely to result in your humiliation. Niselur, Farronite Republic, Asylon, and Phantaria surround Astrum. Libero Empire and Luria Nova flank Morek.

Which is why we won't likely be calling a crusade.

[Chenier]

Which is why we won't likely be calling a crusade.

Doesn't matter, you still lost. Either Niselur plays along and satisfies itself with knowing it is invincible, or they push their luck and mount a coalition against Astrum anyways just for the sake of it. Being the agressor decreases the odds of gaining enough internal and foreign support drastically, but they may very well be able to get away with even that anyways.

That is kinda the thing with the realms on these corners of the map... Aurvandil didn't need any friends, due to the weakness of their neighors and their cheating advantages. Niselur's got all the defensive perks of a corner, plus mountains to further isolate, AND a bunch of allies to act as buffers on all fronts.

Truth is, Niselur holds all of the cards, now. Whatever happens next is up to them. The Church overextended itself, and has lost this conflict before it even began.

I honestly don't understand how anyone could have seen that last crusade as being a good idea... Machiavel told Vellos, he told Mathurin... don't do this. It's a terrible idea. And the parts that I predicted paled in comparison to what actually came to be and what I did not yet know at the time.

'cause heck, if Niselur decides it doesn't want Terran to exist anymore... it won't. And the crusade will have had zero positive impacts for the church, and just a bunch of negative ones.

Niselur's king is one powerful dude right now. A pity he has to side with Luria Nova.

[Stabbity]

This, in spades.

SA was always strong because the players that were part of it wanted it to be strong. They were willing to play nobles dedicated to their church, and willing to do their duties to the church. This is the key to a successful organization in Battlemaster, whether that organization is a religion, a guild, a secret society, or an entire realm. No organization can run without a group of people willing to make it work.

A growing number of nobles, and especially some of the more vocal ones, have decided that they do not want their characters to participate in the church, and would rather see it destroyed. Some of them because the church will not give them the power and leadership they seek, and some of them because the church will not follow their agenda.

Many (most?) people not in the church, and even quite a few in the church, simply don't understand how SA works, and what made it such a successful and influential institution. It's a bit sad. But it was a hell of a lot of fun building it into the biggest and best religion that Battlemaster has ever seen. I am quite confident that it's like will never be seen again.

I keep seeing the phrase "too many people don't understand how SA works". SA has not found itself able to evolve with the times, and has been relying purely on its history of success to see it through its recent actions. Ignoring the vocal majority of the full members is a huge mistake that has cost the Church a great deal. The politics of the elders have continued to alienate more and more individuals who wield considerable amounts of secular power. The Last Crusade is proof that the elders are out of touch with the secular powers. You claim that nobles not bending over themselves to please the church isn't typical medieval, but that simply isn't true. The HRE is a huge indicator of this. The Sunni/Shia schism is a great example as well. The Catholic Church was largely successful through the middle ages because it was able to keep the vast majority of the secular powers appeased, and served functional uses to the secular rulers. Spain for example, fighting the moors, benefited greatly from the Church.

The best parallel I can find for this lies with Crusader Kings II. Holy wars are fought, and various actions can cause a church to lose or gain moral authority. This last Crusade destroyed the church's moral authority in the eyes of a great deal of its followers. If Sanguis Astroism wants to regain its moral authority, it needs to not appear to be playing to the whims of a singular elder over a large, vocal, portion of the faith. Whatever the reality of the situation, that is how it was perceived, and perception is reality.

[Frostwood]

snip

Hence the greater disparity over current events.  Niselur has done more to warrant a crusade, or at least a smack on the wrist, but not only is Niselur not getting punished, but is being allowed back in with greater voice than it did before.

As I said IC, if we stood alone or were as small as Phantaria, I have no doubt that SA would try to curb-stomp us.

While the church was looking elsewhere, King Leopold was quietly building allies.  King Leopold has been planning this move for months, and it was hinted at on the Dwarf Fortress forums, when it was mentioned we were in the middle of SA(a.k.a boring land I believe was hinted at).  Thus people from there joined in waiting for King Leopold to deliver, and so far he has not disappointed.

[Geronus]

I keep seeing the phrase "too many people don't understand how SA works". SA has not found itself able to evolve with the times, and has been relying purely on its history of success to see it through its recent actions. Ignoring the vocal majority of the full members is a huge mistake that has cost the Church a great deal. The politics of the elders have continued to alienate more and more individuals who wield considerable amounts of secular power. The Last Crusade is proof that the elders are out of touch with the secular powers. You claim that nobles not bending over themselves to please the church isn't typical medieval, but that simply isn't true. The HRE is a huge indicator of this. The Sunni/Shia schism is a great example as well. The Catholic Church was largely successful through the middle ages because it was able to keep the vast majority of the secular powers appeased, and served functional uses to the secular rulers. Spain for example, fighting the moors, benefited greatly from the Church.

The best parallel I can find for this lies with Crusader Kings II. Holy wars are fought, and various actions can cause a church to lose or gain moral authority. This last Crusade destroyed the church's moral authority in the eyes of a great deal of its followers. If Sanguis Astroism wants to regain its moral authority, it needs to not appear to be playing to the whims of a singular elder over a large, vocal, portion of the faith. Whatever the reality of the situation, that is how it was perceived, and perception is reality.

What happened, to be honest, is that the players/characters who built SA left. Not all of them, but most of them. There was a time when it would have been inconceivable for Niselur to defy the Church this way, or for Astrum to find itself in this position of weakness. It wasn't all that long ago that both Kabrinskia (as it was then) and Niselur were client states of Astrum. It is sheer passivity that has allowed the present state of affairs to come to pass. Leopold's rebellion should have been crushed without mercy, and FR should have been brought into line more carefully. Unfortunately, the personal relationships that once bound SA together (for example the Brance-Rowan-Bustoarsenzio relationship) have ceased to exist, and without them the fabric that bound the Church together is slowly eroding.

[Glaumring the Fox]

The combined Astroist alliances inability to smash Asylon not once but twice was the beginning of the end.

[Arrakis]

'cause heck, if Niselur decides it doesn't want Terran to exist anymore... it won't.

Alaster and Turin are doing this on their own very well. Both of them have sent letters to literally all nobles of Niselur in attempt to destabilize and overthrow Leopold. This is a standard Dustole move of sending out feelers like he used to do with Allison. However, Alaster is no Allison from her best days, and such a tactic doesn't pass with fresh and unproven characters like Alaster is. When Alaster realized that his political move won't gain him back-up from the Church like he expected, he threw a hissy fit at Leopold and meekly offered a duel to death. Normally, much more than fate of Terran is at stake for Leopold to accept it.

[Arrakis]

What happened, to be honest, is that the players/characters who built SA left. Not all of them, but most of them. There was a time when it would have been inconceivable for Niselur to defy the Church this way, or for Astrum to find itself in this position of weakness. It wasn't all that long ago that both Kabrinskia (as it was then) and Niselur were client states of Astrum. It is sheer passivity that has allowed the present state of affairs to come to pass. Leopold's rebellion should have been crushed without mercy, and FR should have been brought into line more carefully. Unfortunately, the personal relationships that once bound SA together (for example the Brance-Rowan-Bustoarsenzio relationship) have ceased to exist, and without them the fabric that bound the Church together is slowly eroding.

I agree with this observation. When the pillars that built SA departed the foundation of characters on which SA was built was gone, and some new people, perhaps unproven in the eyes of the Church, have taken the leadership. But it is worthy to note that these characters have left for a reason. SA has reached its height and there was nothing left to do. Dwilight was conquered and trying to control such a massive core of nobles that SA became was exhausting and unrewarding task. The blob was just getting bigger and bigger and regular players simply don't have enough time to devote to control this mass of commotion and regular unrest on daily basis. If they tried, they burned out, which is what I believe happened to Brance when he was the Regent. If Brance couldn't do it, who is probably the most respected individual in the history of SA, I don't think anyone ever will. Without firm leadership that everyone looks up to this mass of nobles become dissatisfied when they're ordered around. It is simply how nature of players and characters works. Mordaunt failed to provide this leadership to the Church and other candidates for the Regent were even worse. Now, when someone like Hireshmont - whose reputation is stained and dubious - becomes the most vocal proponent of the Church, which makes him de facto a leader-in-command, it is only natural that the foundations of the Church start falling apart. Every Empire reaches its zenith and so does SA. But after you surpass that point, there is only a long way down to go. I don't think SA will die out, that would be a great shame. But I think things will change if this war makes the effect I am hoping it will. For better or for worse, it is hard to say. I don't think anyone knows for sure what will be the result in the end. But I believe that as long as we're having fun traveling - the destination is less important.

[Anaris]

Doesn't matter, you still lost. Either Niselur plays along and satisfies itself with knowing it is invincible, or they push their luck and mount a coalition against Astrum anyways just for the sake of it. Being the agressor decreases the odds of gaining enough internal and foreign support drastically, but they may very well be able to get away with even that anyways.

Gotta say, this is what it looks like to me, too.

And you know that when I agree with Chénier on anything, you're doomed.

[Indirik]

Niselur and the Farronites will attack as soon as the tournament is over. The war has been a foregone conclusion for quite some time. It will happen. Niselur has built a strong coalition of allies, and can't back down. Doing so takes them right back into being the boring, no-action realm out in the ass-end of nowhere that they don't want to be. That would be the end of Leopold's reign, as he built his following on promises fo being important and relevant.

He can really only go after FR, Asylon, and Astrum. And he's allied to two of those...

What will be interesting is what Libero will do. LE and Niselur are tied together. Will Libero try to aide Niselur? Will Morek attack them because of their status as vassals of Niselur, taking advantage of Niselur's dissolving of the alliance chain that protected LE? If so, how will Niselur defend LE while simultaneously fighting against Astrum?

[Wolfang]

First World War of Dwilight Inc.

[Chenier]

Morek and Libero will have big decisions on their hands. Libero's a vassal of Niselur, and it'd make little sense for them to pay thousands of gold to be a vassal and not obey. However, the context is maybe different than they first thought... I have no idea what went on in their minds, but if they were giving gold to Niselur simply to fend off a perceived impending Morekian invasion, this is quite something else. Niselur would never be able to do anything to protect Libero if it's fighting Astrum, leaving Morek to beat the hell out of Libero. However, if Morek engages Libero, then they cease to become available to enforce the D'Hara-Luria Nova peace treaty they've promised to militarily back up, opening the door for a new Lurian invasion. At least for a little while. Would Luria Nova be ready to jump on this opportunity to attack D'Hara, though, with the knowledge that Libero might not last long and that Morek could soon come back to punish their betrayal?

Indeed, it's a world war brewing like Dwilight has never seen. It remains to be seen to what level it will pan off. Some nations have all interests to try to prevent it at all costs, like Astrum and D'Hara, while others have much to lose by it not happening, like Niselur.

[Vellos]

Morek and Libero will have big decisions on their hands. Libero's a vassal of Niselur, and it'd make little sense for them to pay thousands of gold to be a vassal and not obey. However, the context is maybe different than they first thought... I have no idea what went on in their minds, but if they were giving gold to Niselur simply to fend off a perceived impending Morekian invasion, this is quite something else. Niselur would never be able to do anything to protect Libero if it's fighting Astrum, leaving Morek to beat the hell out of Libero. However, if Morek engages Libero, then they cease to become available to enforce the D'Hara-Luria Nova peace treaty they've promised to militarily back up, opening the door for a new Lurian invasion. At least for a little while. Would Luria Nova be ready to jump on this opportunity to attack D'Hara, though, with the knowledge that Libero might not last long and that Morek could soon come back to punish their betrayal?

Indeed, it's a world war brewing like Dwilight has never seen. It remains to be seen to what level it will pan off. Some nations have all interests to try to prevent it at all costs, like Astrum and D'Hara, while others have much to lose by it not happening, like Niselur.

LE paid Niselur to protect them from Morek: I'm not sure what LE will do when Niselur provokes Morek into attacking them.

[Chenier]

LE paid Niselur to protect them from Morek: I'm not sure what LE will do when Niselur provokes Morek into attacking them.

Indeed. I don't know LE enough to say more on this. LE is a big looser in this conflict, though, should war come to be. Not sure how they'll love Niselur putting them in this tough spot, either.