Author Topic: Sanguis Astroism  (Read 1035050 times)

Geronus

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2565: April 17, 2013, 07:12:04 PM »
The relationship between the Church and the theocracies has always been interesting. When Rowan was around, there was little separation between the two, but that was because the most influential Elders, like Brance, Rowan, Allison and Bustoarsenzio, were all also heavyweights in their respective theocracies. Hence, Church policy typically reflected the interests of the theocracies in the end and vice versa. Policy was often made on behalf of theocracies, such as when the Church declared a crusade against Torenism, giving Astrum a degree of political cover for what was otherwise a fairly transparent land grab from Everguard. Likewise, proposed Church policies that weren't in the interest of the big theocracies typically died on the vine. On the other hand both of the big theocracies typically worked to expand the influence of the Church in Dwilight.

When Lysander was around, this status quo was definitely changing. It seemed to me that the theocracies were becoming less tied to the Church hierarchy, making room for the Church to make its own policies with less deference to the theocracies' secular interests, but also imperiling the Church's ability to unite the theocracies around its chosen policies. A case in point might be the Aurvandil war.

Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2566: April 17, 2013, 08:01:48 PM »
I can't blame FR for wanting some self-determination after all Allison's shenanigans.
They can have all the self-determination they want. The church historically never interfered in theocratic business. All of this mess about things the theocracies need to do, and these new sections of the charter are a response to the foundation of the Farronite Republic. If FR hadn't bucked the church and gone Republic, it ever would have happened.

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Good ol' SA doing its job as our Dwili Catholic Church. :)
Damn right. None of this wishy-washy tolerance most religions seem to push.
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Dante Silverfire

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2567: April 17, 2013, 08:06:05 PM »
Damn right. None of this wishy-washy tolerance most religions seem to push.

Yep, the Prophet of SA, certainly didn't give a Sermon regarding tolerance of other faiths in the recent past.
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JeVondair

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2568: April 17, 2013, 08:36:07 PM »
Yep, the Prophet of SA, certainly didn't give a Sermon regarding tolerance of other faiths in the recent past.

Nope, Rynn def did not hear anything remotely like that during his wedding to Khari. Not at all.
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2569: April 17, 2013, 08:54:48 PM »
Pft... he's just the Prophet. He doesn't run the church. ;)

You need to get on the ball, and figure out who really runs the church.
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cenrae

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2570: April 17, 2013, 09:16:43 PM »
So they in fact do not abide by those theocratic principles outlined in Article X and XI? If that's true, then they need to get with the program or otherwise get comfortable with not having an Elder seat.

However,

If they can prove they abide by those rules that were outlined, then I don't really see the problem. Just because they butt political heads with the church should not be sufficient grounds to deny them. Right?

Article XI is fully in compliance and written into FR laws long before those same point were officially in the charter.
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2571: April 17, 2013, 09:39:45 PM »
Article XI is fully in compliance and written into FR laws long before those same point were officially in the charter.
Indeed, this article was patterned after the agreement that was made with FR. I think Turin submitted something like it to the Elders shortly before the FR debacle happened. It was then modified and presented to FR as a compromise to get the church off of FR's back, and forestall war against FR. It did not grant FR theocracy status.

In any case, FR can be as compliant as it wants. Articles X and XI only apply to theocracies.
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Solari

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2572: April 17, 2013, 09:50:49 PM »
Yep, the Prophet of SA, certainly didn't give a Sermon regarding tolerance of other faiths in the recent past.

Of course, he also followed that up by using Allison and Orthodox Astroism as props with which to reassert the supreme truth of the revelations, as received by him, from the Bloodstars. Indirik has a point in that the machinery of the Faith can be manipulated pretty well without the Prophet's involvement or knowledge. That said, I wonder how many Elders hold the Prophet in such high regard that they would set themselves on fire if the Prophet commanded it. I know of at least two.  :-X

Dishman

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2573: April 17, 2013, 10:51:26 PM »
I do find it interesting how it seems that as SA grows, it is stuck in the position of losing it's hardliner edge to placating the diverse wills of its growing body, or alienate it's followers and hold tight to its previous zeal.

I wonder if there is a tipping point where SA gets a genuine schism, rather than the pseduo-schism Allison created.
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Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2574: April 17, 2013, 11:21:20 PM »
Articles X and XI only apply to theocracies.

Do not assert as fact what is, in fact, just your opinion.

I know at least one of the church's chief canon lawyers disagrees with this position.
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2575: April 17, 2013, 11:28:02 PM »
Then that canon lawyers shouldn't have explicitly written that the articles apply to theocracies.
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Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2576: April 17, 2013, 11:33:42 PM »
Then that canon lawyers shouldn't have explicitly written that the articles apply to theocracies.

That depends on how you read it, and how you define "theocracy of Sanguis Astroism."

Again, it's a debate that will be had extensively IC, I am sure.
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JeVondair

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2577: April 17, 2013, 11:37:33 PM »
That depends on how you read it, and how you define "theocracy of Sanguis Astroism."

Again, it's a debate that will be had extensively IC, I am sure.

It will have to be, because so far, I really do not see any reason why an Elder seat should be withheld. The church has virtually everything they want, regardless if they feel they had to pull teeth to get it.

On another note, would the Church implode if Khari, Constantine, and Chernier convinced Rynn to convert?
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cenrae

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2578: April 17, 2013, 11:41:24 PM »
Rynn, dear are you saying my pillow talk is working?
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Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2579: April 17, 2013, 11:49:08 PM »
On another note, would the Church implode if Khari, Constantine, and Chernier convinced Rynn to convert?

Turn to the dark side, Rynn.
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