Author Topic: Sanguis Astroism  (Read 1035423 times)

Chenier

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2955: June 20, 2013, 05:23:46 AM »
No war! No war! :(
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Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2956: June 20, 2013, 05:32:08 AM »
No war! No war! :(

Nope.

You really think Astrum is going to tangle with Niselur, Asylon, FR, possibly Libero, all at once?

Niselur has done a good job of ensuring peace. The alliance with Luria Nova was a nice touch too.
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Penchant

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2957: June 20, 2013, 06:56:02 AM »
Nope.

You really think Astrum is going to tangle with Niselur, Asylon, FR, possibly Libero, all at once?

Niselur has done a good job of ensuring peace. The alliance with Luria Nova was a nice touch too.
So umm why not? They haven't done much in quite awhile. Sure some of the higher ups have had fun with politics but the leaders seem to not want their realms to have fun. I don't care what they do but for quite awhile all its been is threaten people and now that a chance for conflict arrives they chicken out. Btw, Astrum would of course have Morek and Corsanctum's help. If Libero tried any thing it would be took out rather quickly IMO. It would actually be a really good war, especially since it would cause another conflict to arise. The continent would be in war and it wouldn't be a gangbang, it would be more or less even so I really don't see how the war would be bad.
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Frostwood

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2958: June 20, 2013, 10:08:27 AM »
Unfortunately, this proves King Leopold's point-that the elders of SA will only fight if there is overwhelming advantage, such as 4vs1 against Asylon, and the might of SA against Phantaria.

Vellos does know how to chicken out in style...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 10:46:18 AM by Frostwood »
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Arrakis

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2959: June 20, 2013, 11:15:41 AM »
Not all Elders are like that, but the vast majority is. To understand the logic of those Elders we first need to realize their nature; they're mostly priests and politicians that don't benefit from intra-SA fighting, cause this diminishes their power and authority. Primarily authority. But on the other hand, they're eager to declare a crusade in those areas where SA's influence can spread and they're doing it to gain authority over larger mass of followers. For successful crusade means more people to do their bidding. It is a gutless politic of convenience that has no similarities with anything that can be considered spiritual. I find it highly amusing that this method backfired and that crusade in Terran has done more damage that what is worth.

From Leopold's perspective, the fact that the Elders are twitching and turning to appease him to rejoin the theocratic family makes him chuckle a bit. The Elders are on their knees and the fact that they bended so easily is another testament to Leopold of their spineless politicking. In the old days, to do what Leopold has done and get away with it would be impossible for the Church has been much more stricter then, but also more righteous than it is now. Now, the Elders seems to be run by characters who endlessly scheme to have their way ( I think some have labeled them as southern republicans ). I think there are a few of such characters, but I am primarily thinking of Hireshmont here for his trick with Terran is what alienated the relations. The fact that other Elders allowed Hireshmont to get away with it, and that he became the loudest voice that represents the Church is where the Elders have probably made a mistake.

From the perspective of a player, the fact that Elders are chickening out is quite a disappointment. To not keep in mind the pros this war would bring to Dwilight and Battlemaster as a whole is an oversight. Its like no one notices that theocracies are graveyards that boast the least number of characters on Dwilight and that are the most empty and void realms to play in. The goal of any player that has an important position in any realm and continent is to ensure that it is fun for others, too. I will draw a parallel with CE here, and say that Dwilight Northern federative block that is without a doubt intertwined and ruled by SA leadership is quite similar to CE. To bitch about a power block on one continent but do a similar thing on the other is quite a misguided understanding of player responsibility, and is usually done by same people.

In any case, I think that the odds for such a war are nowhere as one sided as the Elders think. The power of the theocracies are great even though they are a bit dormant. In fact, Leopold is making a huge risk for Niselur can easily be destroyed in the process. But I, as a player, am ready to take that risk regardless of the consequences and am driving Leopold according to that. I really don't want to have a King in the a** of the world that will never amount to anything or matter to anyone. I've built a massive IC story to further these goals the best I could, and the fact that the Elders are going great lengths to remain in the status quo is making it more difficult. But luckily for the players of Dwilight, the decision no longer rests in the hands of the Elders.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2960: June 20, 2013, 11:21:14 AM »
Stuff

Good. I hope SA gets pushed back to Morek and remain there. It is time for the era of Theocracies to come to an end. They literally killed the entire north with their stupid military alliance :p

Wolfang

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2961: June 20, 2013, 11:29:44 AM »
Counter-crusade Crusade! Purge the SA of these foul scheming elders who have corrupted the true faith!! TO WARRR BLAAAARGHHHH


Jaden

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2962: June 20, 2013, 11:42:02 AM »
cant you guys just let us have fun  :'(
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Chenier

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2963: June 20, 2013, 12:29:50 PM »
Nope.

You really think Astrum is going to tangle with Niselur, Asylon, FR, possibly Libero, all at once?

Niselur has done a good job of ensuring peace. The alliance with Luria Nova was a nice touch too.

I hadn't looked at it this way.

Nice. Morek remains available to defend the peace treaty, hurray! :D
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Glaumring the Fox

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2964: June 20, 2013, 02:11:31 PM »
Chatmaster...or gankmaster
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Meneldur

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2965: June 20, 2013, 02:19:43 PM »
Not all Elders are like that, but the vast majority is. To understand the logic of those Elders we first need to realize their nature; they're mostly priests and politicians that don't benefit from intra-SA fighting, cause this diminishes their power and authority. Primarily authority. But on the other hand, they're eager to declare a crusade in those areas where SA's influence can spread and they're doing it to gain authority over larger mass of followers. For successful crusade means more people to do their bidding. It is a gutless politic of convenience that has no similarities with anything that can be considered spiritual. I find it highly amusing that this method backfired and that crusade in Terran has done more damage that what is worth.

From Leopold's perspective, the fact that the Elders are twitching and turning to appease him to rejoin the theocratic family makes him chuckle a bit. The Elders are on their knees and the fact that they bended so easily is another testament to Leopold of their spineless politicking. In the old days, to do what Leopold has done and get away with it would be impossible for the Church has been much more stricter then, but also more righteous than it is now. Now, the Elders seems to be run by characters who endlessly scheme to have their way ( I think some have labeled them as southern republicans ). I think there are a few of such characters, but I am primarily thinking of Hireshmont here for his trick with Terran is what alienated the relations. The fact that other Elders allowed Hireshmont to get away with it, and that he became the loudest voice that represents the Church is where the Elders have probably made a mistake.

From the perspective of a player, the fact that Elders are chickening out is quite a disappointment. To not keep in mind the pros this war would bring to Dwilight and Battlemaster as a whole is an oversight. Its like no one notices that theocracies are graveyards that boast the least number of characters on Dwilight and that are the most empty and void realms to play in. The goal of any player that has an important position in any realm and continent is to ensure that it is fun for others, too. I will draw a parallel with CE here, and say that Dwilight Northern federative block that is without a doubt intertwined and ruled by SA leadership is quite similar to CE. To bitch about a power block on one continent but do a similar thing on the other is quite a misguided understanding of player responsibility, and is usually done by same people.

In any case, I think that the odds for such a war are nowhere as one sided as the Elders think. The power of the theocracies are great even though they are a bit dormant. In fact, Leopold is making a huge risk for Niselur can easily be destroyed in the process. But I, as a player, am ready to take that risk regardless of the consequences and am driving Leopold according to that. I really don't want to have a King in the a** of the world that will never amount to anything or matter to anyone. I've built a massive IC story to further these goals the best I could, and the fact that the Elders are going great lengths to remain in the status quo is making it more difficult. But luckily for the players of Dwilight, the decision no longer rests in the hands of the Elders.

I'm not sure I understand your first point; how is using crusades to expand the religion a "gutless politics"? Sure from a modern day perspective we don't like it, but from a medieval mindset it makes perfect sense; while they seem to us a horrific abuse of religion the medieval crusades were seen at the time as a supremely spiritual venture (at least by a significant proportion of the Catholic Church).

As for war; for a short amount of time there was some serious tension in the Council between Hireshmont and Pierre and fanatics like Constantine and Turin over whether a crusade should be declared. However then Brance and Sergio basically said that in the case of a war against Nislur's alliance Astrum would be guaranteed to fall within a very short period of time even with Morek and Corsanctum's help. Regardless of the real odds you (or more accuratly the Farronites) have managed to convince Astrum  that they stand no chance, and when the soldiers who would be fighting the war claim they will lose within weeks it's really quite impossible for the Elders to seriously contemplate going ahead anyway.

I agree with some of the rest of what you have said; the blatant appeasement that Hireshmont is embarking on makes the Elders weakness painfully obvious and such a dramatic u-turn only makes us look worse not better. This is also a subject of significant debate in the Elders Council, but Hireshomnt is the only really active light and the one responsible for Church negotiations- short of removing him from power altogether there is little the other Elders can do but continue to voice their objections and prevent thesigning of any humiliating treaties.

vonGenf

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2966: June 20, 2013, 03:11:48 PM »
To understand the logic of those Elders we first need to realize their nature; they're mostly priests and politicians that don't benefit from intra-SA fighting, cause this diminishes their power and authority. Primarily authority. But on the other hand, they're eager to declare a crusade in those areas where SA's influence can spread and they're doing it to gain authority over larger mass of followers. For successful crusade means more people to do their bidding.

That part you get right.

Quote
It is a gutless politic of convenience that has no similarities with anything that can be considered spiritual.

That, however is not true. First if all, it is certainly not gutless. It was not easy to achieve, and it is hard to hold onto. It is deliberate chauvinistic expansion. Secondly, to claim it's not spiritual is to misunderstand what SA stands for. SA does not prescribe a set of morals to follow. SA says that you will lead a successful life if you can recognize the will of the Stars and act upon it at the right time. To act to further the goals of the Stars, you must have power at your disposal. SA is not a religion favorable to the separation of church and state.

Quote
From the perspective of a player, the fact that Elders are chickening out is quite a disappointment. To not keep in mind the pros this war would bring to Dwilight and Battlemaster as a whole is an oversight. Its like no one notices that theocracies are graveyards that boast the least number of characters on Dwilight and that are the most empty and void realms to play in. The goal of any player that has an important position in any realm and continent is to ensure that it is fun for others, too. I will draw a parallel with CE here, and say that Dwilight Northern federative block that is without a doubt intertwined and ruled by SA leadership is quite similar to CE. To bitch about a power block on one continent but do a similar thing on the other is quite a misguided understanding of player responsibility, and is usually done by same people.

It takes two to waltz. Go ahead and declare the war if the other side is too slow for you! I agree with you that it would be good for Dwilight.

After all it's a roleplaying game.

Perth

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2967: June 20, 2013, 07:24:50 PM »
Counter-crusade Crusade! Purge the SA of these foul scheming elders who have corrupted the true faith!! TO WARRR BLAAAARGHHHH

Yes!

Niselur and the Farronites need to find an Anti-Pope(Prophet) to champion! That would be great.
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JeVondair

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2968: June 20, 2013, 07:33:13 PM »
Anyone ever read the Safehold series by David Weber?
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Geronus

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2969: June 20, 2013, 07:53:24 PM »
I have. Are you about to draw parallels between SA and the Church of God Awaiting?