Sanguis Astroism

[dustole]

I have good faith.  I'm doing thus to savethe church.  Even if I gotta change how I play Alaster.




If people truly don't want Alaster I will just pause him and you all can deal with Jonsu on your own.


I was about to pause when I talked to Jonsu and reputed to find a way for us to win the church back.

[Daycryn]

Yeah and it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER that Jonsu promoted Alaster to Prophet. That character would have no reason to do that kind of thing and the only reason it happened is because you two are making OOC deals - just the way you're appealing to me OOC to support Alaster. My character would have absolutely no reason to do that either, certainly not just because you're sending me OOC messages to gain IC support. And all this convoluted, implausible, poorly roleplayed, game-mechanics winning crap is just too much for me, I'd rather play an enjoyable game with believable characters and events and up until this "controversial" situation that's exactly what it's been - regardless of how well things are going for my characters. So yeah, I'm tapping out, have fun.

[dustole]

Daycryn,

I've sent you IC messages as well.    At least I thought I did before I started sending OOC messages.     My OOC messages were more of a plea to help me.  If current situation isn't the best then help me figure one out.   


Jonsu the character did not promote me to Elder.    Justin the player did.   He did that so that there is a means by which to oppose his take over of the church.  I spoke to you as a player to try and help you understand the situation OOC. 

I am going to go back and make sure I sent Rabisu an IC letter.  Because it was hectic last night and I might have missed a few people.

[pcw27]

No.

And who the hell do you think you are to be making loud demands of "GMs"?

Everything that happened, happened through perfectly IC game mechanics that are shared by every religion out there.

We understand that the result is controversial; however, it has been well-known for many years now that whoever holds the top rank in a guild or religion owns it, and there is no recourse if you don't like what they're doing.

The fact that this is the first time—in the nearly 10 years since religion was implemented in the game—that there has been what amounts to a hostile takeover of a major religion should be a strong indicator that the game mechanics are, by and large, working well.

Does it suck for those who don't want Prophet Jonsu? Yeah, it sure does. But so do a lot of other things in BattleMaster that are totally legitimate, like losing a rebellion or having your character banned, then executed.

There's never been a situation like this before because no religion has actually mattered enough that this could come about. This entire event highlights a truly absurd situation. Let suppose that one day pope Francis declared Justin Bieber the second coming of Christ, and then Jesus Bieber started tweeting from all the way in Toronto that all the cardinals are excommunicated. Do you think anything would happen beyond the Cardinals declaring Francis has gone nuts, having his crazy ass thrown out of the church and convening to elect a new pope?

Come on the game mechanics here are absurd and we're only seeing that now because few religions have ever been important enough that people actually plotted to take them over.

Now that they've created a metagame with rules they agreed on out of character. That's just absurd.

People, there are ways to deal with this IC, that you don't see them, doesn't mean there arent.

We've discussed our options and they all pretty much suck, will cut the religeon's membership in half and have about a one in a million chance of working anyway.

Personally I believe it's a good thing SA is getting damage, the enforced peace of the faith has created a too stable relation between major realms in the north. Wars against those realms used to be suicide. SA as well only went for their win, accepting only their outcome/solution. So don't be surprised if something is plotted against the all mighty SA that you can't stop despite having massive numbers. Accept what has happened, regroup, think what you can do and for godssake don't just sit on your ass and accept it ic-ly.

Did you get knocked on the head and forget the last year and a half? The religion already lost it's power. Your realm defeated Astrum. We were going for a last ditch priest attack. The Pax Dwilight was over a long time ago.

On that note why the hell did Enoch take his sweet sweet time doing this? He was elected regent a really long time ago. He just passively let everything transpire. It's like he was waiting for the most frustrating moment to spring this on us.

[Charles]

One method that might be easiest to solve this problem (potentially) is to make the top person(s) in any religion mortal.  As in, they can be killed killed when attacked by an infiltrator, like heroes.  This makes sense historically as usually when a powerful head of church/state needed to be replaced, they were assassinated.

The religion mechanics do seem like a problematic aspect of the game.  This is from someone who has no vested interest in SA and am just now attempting to partake in the whole religious aspect of the game (on a different continent). 

I actually have more interest in the destruction of SA, if SA starts to crumble I may just loot the temple in my region for the gold.  My character does hate Jonsu though.  And I must say that the player of Jonsu plays her in a very different way than I like, but that is his/her choice.  The scheming which she does, in my opinion, should have gotten her executed a while ago.  My character disliked many of her previous stunts, this one I am uncomfortable with. 

One thing that probably should be considered is that the game as it is makes things very fun and interesting for Jonsu and a few others who partake in what she is doing, but less fun for nearly everyone else.  Telling people who have spent years building something that has suddenly been torn from them to "suck it up, it's a game" is a bit unfair and not useful.  This is not backgammon or risk where starting over is even an option.

[pcw27]

Is Mathurin still paused? It would be just fantastic if he'd show up and fix all this.

[dustole]

But there is another option.    I understand that not everyone likes Alaste.   I am trying to make the best out of a bad situation.   


Feel free to talk to me on the Forums or through in game means to help me come up with a solution that isn't.   "Just delete your character"
I am actually quite open to ideas and ways to make this fun for everyone.

[Chenier]

But there is another option.    I understand that not everyone likes Alaste.   I am trying to make the best out of a bad situation.   


Feel free to talk to me on the Forums or through in game means to help me come up with a solution that isn't.   "Just delete your character"
I am actually quite open to ideas and ways to make this fun for everyone.

You are trying to make a crap situation from a crappier situation is how most people would see it.

[D`Este]

chenier, stop behaving like a kid who's candy is stolen. In every thread in the past week you have been like this. man up.

[Marlboro]

Let suppose that one day pope Francis declared Justin Bieber the second coming of Christ

Maybe that would be similar if Pope Francis was actually Richard Dawkins in disguise. Enoch hated the church and entered it with the sole intention of messing it up.

[Zakilevo]

Should have chosen your elder more carefully. It looks like the church brought itself down.

It would be nice to have an option to get rid of your superior with enough support from your colleagues though.

[pcw27]

Should have chosen your elder more carefully. It looks like the church brought itself down.

It would be nice to have an option to get rid of your superior with enough support from your colleagues though.

Exactly there should be some means to resist, just like how in a rebellion the loyalists have a chance to fight back and if your realm gets taken over by a tyrant you have the chance to rebel.

[dustole]

Sweet jesus.   I'm giving you a means to fight back.  Take it.       Stop complaining and help me fight back. 

You want to burn Alaster at the stake?  I might be willing to do it...     The point is that I know Alaster isn't the most popular.  I'm willing to play this out however it needs to go. 

Fight back and lets turn this into something fun.

[Feylonis]

OOC message to SA, but I suppose I'll post it here, too.

Personally, what is frustrating is that the entire SA is being held hostage, RP-wise, due to the mechanics of BM's religion system.

There was little to no RP for the majority of the church leading up to the takeover. For the most part, it was mechanics. Jonsu returns to SA despite being a declared heretic, because the mechanics allowed her to. Enoch raises Jonsu to an Elder position, giving her mechanical powers to wield in the Church. Jonsu demotes most of the other Elders and bars those people from using those same mechanics against Jonsu.

We are then suggested to find an RP way out of this mess, despite the fact that it was a mess mostly done through the mechanics and not RP. We can RP all we want, but so long as Jonsu or whoever else has Eldership holds mechanical advantage in SA, RP will, at best, be a band-aid. Mechanics will (almost) always trump RP.

Well, what's done is done. At least certain issues in the religion system were exposed. Maybe Elders could not be demoted unless approved by a majority of the other Elders. Maybe Elders could only be elected by a majority of full members. Of course, that does mess with religions whose RP may not be as democratic...

In the end, I suppose, Jonsu wins. Players in religions can no longer expect a certain level of decorum when dealing with each other, since now someone has abused the position of Elder. The powers of the position have always been there, of course, but in the past its uses were tempered by the respect between the players who have access to it and those who do not. That has changed, and now I feel that the mechanics must be changed in order to avoid a repeat of this debacle. The trust between the players, though, cannot be replaced.

@Alaster

Except we can't fight back, unless Jonsu allows us to. There are no mechanics in place that allows full members from deposing Elders. As long as Jonsu keeps the Elder position within her followers, there is no way for the majority of SA to do anything about the hostage.

Mechanics got us here, and mechanics should be able to get us back. RP can only go so far.

[dustole]

But Jonsu is willing to step down if she loses.      That is what is happening here.