Author Topic: Sanguis Astroism  (Read 1028066 times)

Zakilevo

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3585: February 04, 2014, 12:06:25 AM »
He won by exploiting a flawed mechanic. This coup makes no sense in character. There's no logical way this would ever happen in any world real or fantasy that had anything remotely resembling rules of said reality.

There have been many flawed mechanics and there will always be. Like all the previous cases, nothing will be reversed and devs will fix it in time if they(or just Tim now) will fix it if they see it is exploitable.

This has happened what once in the past 10 years? Now that you know this is very possible, I am sure people will be more careful when they are appointing elders.

Zakilevo

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3586: February 04, 2014, 12:11:44 AM »
I agree Lapallanch, also same old story, player Kingdoms/Religions fall and they just rage and quit the game.

Indeed. People either quit or just don't give a damn. When your realm loses a war, people won't quit. They will fight to the end. That doesn't happen in the real world. People surrender and hope they get another chance.

Sure Jonsu became the regent, but who knows. someone might outplay Jonsu in time and kick his ass out. game mechanics are part of this game and all our characters are supposed to play accordingly. you can't expect everything you don't like to be changed.

De-Legro

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3587: February 04, 2014, 12:19:31 AM »
I believe this discussion has probably run its course. There is little chance that people are going to change their minds regarding the events that have occurred if they have not already done so. Further rehashing of both sides of the argument are unlikely to be productive.
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Glaumring the Fox

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3588: February 04, 2014, 12:19:51 AM »
This... Is... AWESOME!!!!  8)
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pcw27

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3589: February 04, 2014, 12:23:59 AM »
I didn't power game. If I was powergaming and looking simply to win, I would not have taken the Church. I did it because it was in character for Jonsu. I'm not going to suddenly admit to doing something because you think I did it, and because you don't like what happened. I'm offering recourse, but my patience for it is wearing very thin for it. I am also not going to suddenly start throwing Jonsu into suicidal actions because you want her dead. She has been playing a very deliberate and patient game for a very long time now, and it bore some very unexpected fruit, and I'm not just going to throw it away. Yes, there is a chance the faith will splinter, and that years of war will inevitably end inconclusively. The protestant reform did not happen in the middle ages, it did not occur until 1517. This is more of an anti-pope situation, and some of those wars lasted a very long time.

Is this battlemaster, or sit-back-and-whine-master?

The gauntlet is thrown. Pick it up, or leave it.

Oh really it's not power gaming then why are you offering a role play consolation prize?

Don't even try to say this was in character. Jonsu left the church declaring it a failed institution. You tried to establish multiple cults with Jonsu and they all failed miserably. Now you're pretending that was all for show? What show is that exactly? Explain how this trick works where being a total failure as a cult leader suddenly makes you eligible to take over a major religion. You had a sleeper who's a borderline inactive player end up on top who hands over the whole religion to you creating a scenario where no one can touch you. How is that not power gaming? What's the roleplay explanation for why Enoch remained loyal to Jonsu all these years even to the point of giving up his own power for her?  Historically that almost never happens. No one willingly hands over authority to someone else when they've reached the top.

You could have done plenty of other things with Enoch in your back pocket but you chose the most exploitative and disruptive one possible. You could have just founded some Eastern Astroist cult and ordered him to accept it and declare your stance friendly to it. You could have just gotten readmitted to the council with him retaining control (as any sane person would in that situation). Nope you chose click to win and now you're using the mechanical power you wield in game as a bargaining chip to play by whatever rules YOU want.

And now you've as much as said you're going to take 0 risks so that you can keep it this way until you get bored with it. But no that's not power gaming in the least.

You know what, !@#$ all your trust and RP medals cause now they don't mean !@#$. I don't care if you've got a congregational medal of honor that doesn't give your free reign to sell nuclear secrets to North Korea.

The funny thing is you've gotten a mountain of universally negative feedback and you don't seem to understand you've done anything wrong. Literally the only people on your side right now are people not playing or people that you've given free crap to.

Indeed. People either quit or just don't give a damn. When your realm loses a war, people won't quit. They will fight to the end. That doesn't happen in the real world. People surrender and hope they get another chance.

Sure Jonsu became the regent, but who knows. someone might outplay Jonsu in time and kick his ass out. game mechanics are part of this game and all our characters are supposed to play accordingly. you can't expect everything you don't like to be changed.

Well no not really because as Justin has admitted he will take absolutely 0 risks with Jonsu so there's absolutely no conceivable way to stop her.

dustole

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3590: February 04, 2014, 12:31:08 AM »

Well no not really because as Justin has admitted he will take absolutely 0 risks with Jonsu so there's absolutely no conceivable way to stop her.


You were given a conceivable way to defeat Jonsu.  You didn't like it.  We offered you another way to do it and you didn't like it. 


You haven't actually given any productive advice or help. 
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Stabbity

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3591: February 04, 2014, 12:32:03 AM »
Oh really it's not power gaming then why are you offering a role play consolation prize?

Don't even try to say this was in character. Jonsu left the church declaring it a failed institution. You tried to establish multiple cults with Jonsu and they all failed miserably. Now you're pretending that was all for show? What show is that exactly? Explain how this trick works where being a total failure as a cult leader suddenly makes you eligible to take over a major religion. You had a sleeper who's a borderline inactive player end up on top who hands over the whole religion to you creating a scenario where no one can touch you. How is that not power gaming? What's the roleplay explanation for why Enoch remained loyal to Jonsu all these years even to the point of giving up his own power for her?  Historically that almost never happens. No one willingly hands over authority to someone else when they've reached the top.

You could have done plenty of other things with Enoch in your back pocket but you chose the most exploitative and disruptive one possible. You could have just founded some Eastern Astroist cult and ordered him to accept it and declare your stance friendly to it. You could have just gotten readmitted to the council with him retaining control (as any sane person would in that situation). Nope you chose click to win and now you're using the mechanical power you wield in game as a bargaining chip to play by whatever rules YOU want.

And now you've as much as said you're going to take 0 risks so that you can keep it this way until you get bored with it. But no that's not power gaming in the least.

You know what, !@#$ all your trust and RP medals cause now they don't mean !@#$. I don't care if you've got a congregational medal of honor that doesn't give your free reign to sell nuclear secrets to North Korea.

The funny thing is you've gotten a mountain of universally negative feedback and you don't seem to understand you've done anything wrong. Literally the only people on your side right now are people not playing or people that you've given free crap to.

Well no not really because as Justin has admitted he will take absolutely 0 risks with Jonsu so there's absolutely no conceivable way to stop her.

Taking risks =/= committing suicidal actions.
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pcw27

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3592: February 04, 2014, 12:33:25 AM »
Taking risks =/= committing suicidal actions.

Do you plan to do anything at all that carries with it the risk of deportation or execution?


You were given a conceivable way to defeat Jonsu.  You didn't like it.  We offered you another way to do it and you didn't like it. 


You haven't actually given any productive advice or help.

We were given a made up game, and then another made up game only this time with no rules except your subjective opinion.

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3593: February 04, 2014, 12:36:22 AM »
He said Jonsu and Alaster are trying to set up a counterplay and wants help with it but all these rage and whine posts are not helping. Help him setup counterplay instead of whining here.

Dishman

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3594: February 04, 2014, 12:36:56 AM »
There's never been a situation like this before because no religion has actually mattered enough that this could come about. This entire event highlights a truly absurd situation. Let suppose that one day pope Francis declared Justin Bieber the second coming of Christ, and then Jesus Bieber started tweeting from all the way in Toronto that all the cardinals are excommunicated. Do you think anything would happen beyond the Cardinals declaring Francis has gone nuts, having his crazy ass thrown out of the church and convening to elect a new pope?

If I lived in a world of magic and medieval zealotry, maybe. We just had all the continents experience a magic world-shift. We are now plagued by monsters and undead. Every character can sense doom ticking down slowly upon the world. It isn't a much greater RP stretch to say a new prophet was primed and presented by the one elected 'closest to the prophet'. Weird !@#$ did happen in the medieval age without magic.

On that note why the hell did Enoch take his sweet sweet time doing this? He was elected regent a really long time ago. He just passively let everything transpire. It's like he was waiting for the most frustrating moment to spring this on us.

Sort of, yes. Several other people have complained that Enoch didn't talk much, and it is true that he made only token announcements to the general body and barely attended tasks...but I assure you he wasn't inactive. He kept as much of his correspondence 1on1 as possible. I tried to run several plots, all of which gained no traction. He did actively work toward the theocracies defeat, slipping tidbits of information that might be useful here and there...but he kept face. Should I have not let Dwilight have one great war before distracting everyone? Should I have pulled this in the middle of Niselur burning...or Astrum burning?

I actually have more interest in the destruction of SA, if SA starts to crumble I may just loot the temple in my region for the gold.  My character does hate Jonsu though.  And I must say that the player of Jonsu plays her in a very different way than I like, but that is his/her choice.  The scheming which she does, in my opinion, should have gotten her executed a while ago.  My character disliked many of her previous stunts, this one I am uncomfortable with. 

One thing that probably should be considered is that the game as it is makes things very fun and interesting for Jonsu and a few others who partake in what she is doing, but less fun for nearly everyone else.  Telling people who have spent years building something that has suddenly been torn from them to "suck it up, it's a game" is a bit unfair and not useful.  This is not backgammon or risk where starting over is even an option.

The player of Jonsu isn't to blame for this. Enoch came to her out of the blue, offering the reigns of the church (after a little haggling). I started working with Stabbity OOC to make sure that the fallout of this would be more fun than devastating. I was ready to bail on the plan if Stabbity was just going to destroy the church. I wanted SA the church (not the nobles, who are busy with monsters/undead/rebuilding) to have to reshape itself. Every election everyone hammered on and on about the charter....cause it seemed there was little else to do. Talk more about how we love the bloodstars? The war was nice....but what was likely to come after?

Enoch hated the church and entered it with the sole intention of messing it up.

You'd be surprised how many secret gathering places for Mysticism there are. It is largely inactive without Bowie, but I'm hoping for a revival. Enoch has been a panthiest this entire time, often talking about bloodmoon fruit and little tidbits here and there of other things. He wanted the church undermined significantly so that paganism will prosper.

I think this event will make Dwilight more interesting.

That was the intent.

I didn't power game. If I was powergaming and looking simply to win, I would not have taken the Church.....
The gauntlet is thrown. Pick it up, or leave it.

I like the idea of incorporating a schism. Much better than your original idea. Just try to make it fun, even for the complainers.

It's funny, a Kabrinski was the first one I had thought to offer the church to, but correspondence between Enoch and Alaster were somewhat sour.

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Feylonis

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3595: February 04, 2014, 12:44:19 AM »
Trust me, if there was any way for SA to have completely banned Jonsu from ever joining again, we would have. Except there wasn't. Mechanics prevented us from doing this. If there was any way for us to regain control of the church (no, I do not include her scheme, which basically allows us to regain control of the church only if she allows it), we would have. Except there isn't.

There is nothing stopping Jonsu from simply ignoring the results of her "conflict" if it doesn't go her way. And, after everything that she has done, I can't say I trust her not to do so.

pcw27

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3596: February 04, 2014, 12:47:49 AM »
If I lived in a world of magic and medieval zealotry, maybe. We just had all the continents experience a magic world-shift. We are now plagued by monsters and undead. Every character can sense doom ticking down slowly upon the world. It isn't a much greater RP stretch to say a new prophet was primed and presented by the one elected 'closest to the prophet'. Weird !@#$ did happen in the medieval age without magic.

Only that one was a convicted heretic booted out by every single high ranking elder. That every single lay person would go "well he's the regent" is preposterous. You want to say some people would go along with it, sure fine, but all of them? That's preposterous. Unless we're living in a high fantasy world that has mind control that would never happen.

Sort of, yes. Several other people have complained that Enoch didn't talk much, and it is true that he made only token announcements to the general body and barely attended tasks...but I assure you he wasn't inactive. He kept as much of his correspondence 1on1 as possible. I tried to run several plots, all of which gained no traction. He did actively work toward the theocracies defeat, slipping tidbits of information that might be useful here and there...but he kept face. Should I have not let Dwilight have one great war before distracting everyone? Should I have pulled this in the middle of Niselur burning...or Astrum burning?

What the hell kind of sense does any of that make? Why wouldn't you just declare the crusade over? You didn't need to scheme anymore you'd already won!


The player of Jonsu isn't to blame for this. Enoch came to her out of the blue, offering the reigns of the church (after a little haggling). I started working with Stabbity OOC to make sure that the fallout of this would be more fun than devastating. I was ready to bail on the plan if Stabbity was just going to destroy the church. I wanted SA the church (not the nobles, who are busy with monsters/undead/rebuilding) to have to reshape itself. Every election everyone hammered on and on about the charter....cause it seemed there was little else to do. Talk more about how we love the bloodstars? The war was nice....but what was likely to come after?

The war was awesome and it was still going on! We keep trying to convert more people. We keep looking for new prophecies. We search for a new prophet but in a way that's not patently ridiculous.

But you're right Justin isn't to blame for this. You both are. Good job you ruined the most fun thing in all of battle master.

Meneldur

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3597: February 04, 2014, 12:50:07 AM »
I love the new "fun" church... its so fun we have to create an artificial OOC mini-game that circumnavigates/ignores game mechanics in order to make it "interesting"...  ::)

Honestly I hope the interested parties man up and the church schisms, with the breakaway groups fighting each other until one or none gain supremacy. Sure it would suck to see the hard work of so many players (including myself) go to waste, but honestly what is the point of keeping SA institutionally whole when it ceases to be a church and becomes a framework for some strange OOC minigame run by a couple of players?

It's like trying to decide who rules a realm with "Duchy warfare" by exploiting mechanics like murderous settings and whatnot- not fun, gamey and totally immersion breaking. Best to acknowledge that the realm has been broken beyond repair and should just split, and the same goes for the Church. Simply put religions were not meant for the type of factional civil wars and takeovers that we're experiencing now- Jonsu was only able to do what she did because everyone (erroneously) assumed players would respect long established rp over game mechanics; now that people are aware of the risk it would be beyond stupid for Jonsu or anyone else to allow for another takeover, and without the possibility of another takeover an inter-church "civil war" is simply OOC nonsense.

Dishman

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3598: February 04, 2014, 12:50:35 AM »
Trust me, if there was any way for SA to have completely banned Jonsu from ever joining again, we would have. Except there wasn't. Mechanics prevented us from doing this. If there was any way for us to regain control of the church (no, I do not include her scheme, which basically allows us to regain control of the church only if she allows it), we would have. Except there isn't.

There is nothing stopping Jonsu from simply ignoring the results of her "conflict" if it doesn't go her way. And, after everything that she has done, I can't say I trust her not to do so.

OOC-wise, if Jonsu is offering a convienant way to oppose her and you are afraid she won't let you easily topple her....then why would you refuse to even try? Even if she is the tyrant queen of the bloodstars, you can actively work against her...inside the church and out. Enoch did it within the church, Jonsu did it without. If this comes to it SA will be refounded under the old charter and it will be tasked with colonizing Dwilight from the heretic popess.  Does that really sound so horrible?
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Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3599: February 04, 2014, 12:56:10 AM »
OOC-wise, if Jonsu is offering a convienant way to oppose her and you are afraid she won't let you easily topple her....then why would you refuse to even try? Even if she is the tyrant queen of the bloodstars, you can actively work against her...inside the church and out. Enoch did it within the church, Jonsu did it without. If this comes to it SA will be refounded under the old charter and it will be tasked with colonizing Dwilight from the heretic popess.  Does that really sound so horrible?

Because it isn't fun to play in someone else's ego-trip?

And talk about the chilling effects here. If this is to be acceptable use of game mechanics, it kinda raises some questions about the reliability of investing in religions.
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