Author Topic: Sanguis Astroism  (Read 1016442 times)

Bronnen

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3645: February 04, 2014, 02:56:18 AM »
But the simple fact that Jonsu did give Alaster the prophet rank is counter to SMA, as it is completely unthinkable that her character would have done so.

I would have been fine if Jonsu took power and acted like her character. The thing is though that neither Alaster nor Jonsu are acting as their characters which bothers me.

Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3646: February 04, 2014, 02:56:33 AM »
The mechanics in this case were used in exactly the manner they were designed for.

Tim, I have a lot of respect for you and the work you put into BM.

But I think we both know this isn't true.

The mechanics were done that way to make the implementation of religion easier to code and to build off existing guild code, at least in some part inspired by the fact that pre-religion-code religions had operated as guilds. The mechanics were not "designed" IN ORDER TO ensure that the person at the top could have this kind of power. Indeed, the religion organizational features attached in addition to existing guild features (priest and treasury balance based immunities) mostly LIMIT elder power, rather than enhance it.

There is, to my knowledge, no Titan or Magistrate precedent establishing exact rules on this case. But the community reaction is prima facie evidence of a problem with the system. If you designed mechanics intended to have this kind of function (which I really don't think you did; I think you feel you're defending the game community from baseless briefers), then you designed them poorly. But, again, when you say you INTENDED the feature to work this way, I just don't believe you. I don't believe you built a mechanic designed to empower people who choose to play as if they are not playing with friends.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Ohzen

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3647: February 04, 2014, 02:58:07 AM »
In real life changes like this would be made illegitime within seconds.

BM should not be ruled by game mechanics.

I thought this game is more about real live and the flaws in the mechanics are due to the programmers who cant think about EVERYTHING. Well, now I found out that this is but a GAME and you have to stick to the mechanics... I am going to leave.

I very much enjoyed this game and I hope to find something like this in the near future.

Anaris

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3648: February 04, 2014, 02:58:35 AM »
The thing is, they both stated in OOC messages that it was agreed upon OOC, without any IC reasoning whatsoever.

Even if we ignore everything else, that itself is an OOC abuse and a breach of SMA.

That wasn't the original action by Jonsu and Enoch that gained Jonsu undisputed power over SA. That was the action by Jonsu and Alaster make sure that Jonsu's power over SA was not undisputed.

So…are you asking me to punish the people who were trying to make the situation less bad?
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3649: February 04, 2014, 02:58:49 AM »
I would also note that if, "Used for a function not intended" is the measure of abuse, then the current pseudo-schism is abuse. That's a poor standard. The standard for abuse should be "Used in a way to unreasonably injure the ability of other players to enjoy the game." Yes, that means we have to define "unreasonably." But I think this community reaction probably fits the bill.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3650: February 04, 2014, 02:59:37 AM »
That wasn't the original action by Jonsu and Enoch that gained Jonsu undisputed power over SA. That was the action by Jonsu and Alaster make sure that Jonsu's power over SA was not undisputed.

So…are you asking me to punish the people who were trying to make the situation less bad?

No, I believe Dishman said he contacted Justin.

But as to the second, see my above message: if intended functionality is your standard, then yes, punish them both. It's a ridiculous standard, but you should be consistent.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Anaris

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3651: February 04, 2014, 03:01:22 AM »
The mechanics were done that way to make the implementation of religion easier to code and to build off existing guild code, at least in some part inspired by the fact that pre-religion-code religions had operated as guilds. The mechanics were not "designed" IN ORDER TO ensure that the person at the top could have this kind of power. Indeed, the religion organizational features attached in addition to existing guild features (priest and treasury balance based immunities) mostly LIMIT elder power, rather than enhance it.

Tom has stated multiple times that it is fully intentional that the person with the top rank in a guild essentially owns that guild. If you really want, I can probably dig you up some instances, but it'll probably take a while.

Quote
There is, to my knowledge, no Titan or Magistrate precedent establishing exact rules on this case.

Despite your clear opinion to the contrary, we don't need a Titan or Magistrate case to establish precedent for things that Tom has explicitly stated himself.

Quote
But the community reaction is prima facie evidence of a problem with the system.

I disagree.

Quote
If you designed mechanics intended to have this kind of function (which I really don't think you did; I think you feel you're defending the game community from baseless briefers), then you designed them poorly. But, again, when you say you INTENDED the feature to work this way, I just don't believe you. I don't believe you built a mechanic designed to empower people who choose to play as if they are not playing with friends.

I didn't design it at all. Religions were implemented years before I became a dev.

Tom, however, did design it that way, whether you like it or not.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Ohzen

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3652: February 04, 2014, 03:05:42 AM »
Tom, however, did design it that way, whether you like it or not.

This is a game with crude mechanics that hope everyyone who play this got a code of honour. We got abused and the DEV Team is as helpless as we are cause Jonsu and Alaster found a nice lil hole....

Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3653: February 04, 2014, 03:07:24 AM »
Tim,

The point of game mechanics is not to create an idealized form of a game. It's to create a structure in which people are enabled to have fun.

I could change one vowel in the name of who I'm addressing this two, and it would be something I've heard you say a dozen times.

Don't chain yourself to a set of mechanics that's destroying a community.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Tandaros

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3654: February 04, 2014, 03:09:31 AM »
GM warning to all SA and no action taken? This is insane. Vellos is right, the outrage and 3 quit players are proof that this is a problem. Letting this 'just blow over' and let a couple griefers control the situation is the opposite of a solution.

Feylonis

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3655: February 04, 2014, 03:09:59 AM »
Play along or get out. Is anyone surprised that BM is losing players?

Bronnen

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3656: February 04, 2014, 03:11:14 AM »
unlike more of the people who are angry about Enoch and Jonsu's actions, I don't care about that. That was done (to the best of my knowledge completely IC) and fits her character. It might be unpopular and power hungry but I don't care about that because she is playing her character.

The whole thing with Jonsu and Alaster is what I have issues with as neither of them are playing their characters. They aren't, and that's my issue.

Anaris

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3657: February 04, 2014, 03:13:00 AM »
Lyman,
BattleMaster is a game that is competitive by nature, and because of that nature, very often, a group will find itself gaining an advantage at another group's expense. That may even cause the other group to feel like they are being deprived of fun.

This is normal, and expected. It happens every time a realm is destroyed. It happens every time a religion is destroyed.

This case is unusual in that a religion was taken over by someone who is seen as anathema by most of its members. However, that does not in any way negate the fact that it is still fundamentally the same kind of situation.

You don't like it. I get that. You're trying to find reasons that it's got to be Wrong, and ways that everyone who disagrees with you has to be Wrong, too. But I'm afraid things aren't that simple.

People get their fun ruined in BattleMaster all the time, and if we were going to intervene every time that happened, it would ruin everyone's fun, because nothing interesting would ever be allowed to happen again.

You need to deal with this IC.

For now, I'm done with this, as I have RL obligations to deal with. However, if this thread continues in the dev-blaming vein it's been going in, or otherwise continues its flamewar trend, it's going to be locked, and any attempts to open a new thread on the same topic will be deleted and their authors muted.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Dishman

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3658: February 04, 2014, 03:14:25 AM »
.....people who choose to play as if they are not playing with friends.

I think this is where a lot of bad feelings are coming from. I did this as a friend. I thought that most people would enjoy something new. If Stabbity is going out of character to make an offer to reconcile the church, that is playing with friends. The entirety of OOC chatter was 'hey, lets try not to upset everyone who built this but create a real crisis for the church'.

You have a picturesque villain dropped in front of you and rather than fight...people are giving up because I clicked the wrong button. I spent all of 2013 building toward destroying the church, and when Enoch was HANDED THE REGENCY, I stalled to allow what fun people were having to run it's course. Then I gave it to someone I thought could start a new age.

You may not like the decision, but try to remember we are trying to play as friends. Sometimes it is an unfriendly game, but efforts are made.
Eoric the Dim (Perdan), Enoch the Bright (Asylon), Emeric the Dark (Obsidian Islands)

Orobos, The Insatiable Snake (Sandalak)

Chenier

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3659: February 04, 2014, 03:17:06 AM »
Tom has stated multiple times that it is fully intentional that the person with the top rank in a guild essentially owns that guild. If you really want, I can probably dig you up some instances, but it'll probably take a while.

Despite your clear opinion to the contrary, we don't need a Titan or Magistrate case to establish precedent for things that Tom has explicitly stated himself.

I disagree.

I didn't design it at all. Religions were implemented years before I became a dev.

Tom, however, did design it that way, whether you like it or not.

Tom has also continuously stated that religion was, for him, meant to be a roleplaying device, not something about game mechanics, which is utterly contrary to what just happened.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron