Author Topic: Sanguis Astroism  (Read 710303 times)

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3765: February 11, 2014, 03:08:20 AM »
I honestly have no clue what your beef with this is, Indirik. It isn't Stabbity's fault that A) religions are dictatorial in nature, and B) the elders put someone into power that they had no background info on and shafted themselves in the process. Just because SA tried to roleplay over what the game mechanics actually were doesn't mean they were somehow exempt, so man up and stop insinuating at how wrong the situation is with every post.

Meneldur

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3766: February 11, 2014, 03:09:52 AM »
So how long does this "internal conflict" go on for? I remember someone (Stabbity maybe?) mentioned it was going to be a month before a "winner" is declared but is that the confirmed time frame, or is this a kind of "whenever I get bored" kinda thing?

I have to say the whole thing is pretty tiresome- you essentially have half the Church moaning at Jonsu to get out, while she and her two supporters write a couple of letters every now and then completely ignoring the fact that they have no hope of regaining the allegiance of any significant portion of the Church.

Dwilight is just entering monster invasion mode, and instead of coordinating anti-monster attacks and/or coming up with apocalyptic religious rp, SA is stuck in this ridiculous limbo that only about 3 players seem in favor of, and a significant portion of players/characters have all openly stated their opposition to.

Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3767: February 11, 2014, 04:31:17 AM »
My "beef" with this should be obvious to anyone who has read my posts. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. It takes all kinds to make the world go around. It doesn't make you any more right, especially in light of the fact that you weren't even in SA for any of the events that lead up to this, and mostly have no clue what happened inside it. But, hey, post on.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3768: February 11, 2014, 05:41:05 AM »
Considering the evidence provided by other devs that the religious structure as it is currently is meant to be dictatorial, and the Elders gave power to what many people considered an unknown, I'm not at all surprised at the outcome. I will however end this conversation, as I can see where it's going to lead to and don't want this thread locked again.

By the way, in the same way that it doesn't make me any more right, it doesn't make you any more right as well. While you are entitled to your opinion, I would rather you voice any concerns or "beefs" you have regarding this incident outside this thread, as I and many others don't want it locked again.

Zakilevo

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3769: February 11, 2014, 06:00:13 AM »
And this is where people should stop. When the word 'right' starts to come out, it never ends in a pretty fashion.

If you are trying to voice your opinion, please do emphasis on the fact you are trying to voice your opinion instead of trying to 'win' over someone else.

It would help this thread more if people just discuss about facts as there are many people who aren't in the church wondering how the whole situation is being developed since that fateful day.

Chenier

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3770: February 11, 2014, 01:18:48 PM »
The game won't even let me fine someone who already has a fine.

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Your victim already has fines that are not yet paid.
Give him a break! We are very serious about this, repeated finings destroy the fun of playing the game because the player doesn't have gold for a long time.

Just because the game didn't  predict checks for power in religions doesn't mean that restrictions wouldn't be in line with the philosophy of the game, it just means that we have !@#$ religion mechanics that only really make some sense when you consider they are copy-pasted from guilds.

Because hey, somehow fining a royal that already has a small fine is considered too unfun by the game, but holding hundreds of players hostage by a couple of clicks is perfectly legitimate?
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3771: February 11, 2014, 06:39:21 PM »
Considering the evidence provided by other devs that the religious structure as it is currently is meant to be dictatorial,
This is quite true, so far as it goes. Religions are essentially guilds with the added restriction that you can only belong to one. Guilds are intended to be dictatorial, in that those at the top have complete control over what transpires inside the guild. Given the limited scope and power of guilds, this is acceptable.

However, when religion was added, and for quite some time afterward, no consideration was given to the possibility of the sheer amount of power and influence that a religion can amass. If a guild falls or is taken over, does it really matter? You can easily start a new one. It can be a bit of a pain to rebuild your guildhouses and regain your membership, but nothing substantial is lost. (Maybe some gold, but the peasants will quickly replenish that for you.) Besides, guilds really don't inspire the kind of the ambition and power struggles that religions do.

Religions are a different matter. The concentration of power and wealth, expensive infrastructure, extensive character RPs, not to mention the peasant following, represents a significant investment on the part of many, many players. As the organization gets larger, the investment can increase by orders of magnitude. The concentration of wealth/power/influence makes religions an unprecedented target far beyond the scale that was ever envisioned for the simplistic guild-based system. This calls for a stronger coding infrastructure to support the system. Frankly, I consider the failure to provide this to be a failing on the part of the dev team (myself included).

The dev team considers the feasibility of having larger religions to be a desirable thing. Not only larger, but more varied, as well. Large religions allow for large concentrations of power, which allow for many opportunities to create fun situations for the players. The dev team needs to provide the players the tools to do this. We are discussing various proposals to add checks and balances to the system, similar to the way that the realm power structures have checks and balances to the system. Several proposals have been made, but no final decisions have been reached.

If we can find a way to provide systems for religions to be as widely varied as realm governments currently are, that would be of great benefit to the game overall, and the religion game in particular. It should be possible to provide for all types of systems, from the current tyranny style all the way to republican styles, and everything in between. However, the Prophet/Founder rank will always remain at the top of the religion, with full control over everything.

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and the Elders gave power to what many people considered an unknown
This is so untrue as to be laughable. You know nothing of the events and circumstances that lead to the current situation. Your characters haven't been a member of the religion for quite a long time. And for a significant portion of that time, you didn't even have a game account.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3772: February 11, 2014, 06:56:16 PM »
This is so untrue as to be laughable. You know nothing of the events and circumstances that lead to the current situation. Your characters haven't been a member of the religion for quite a long time. And for a significant portion of that time, you didn't even have a game account.

Then tell me Indirik, how did he get power then? Only the Elders have the power to promote.

Daycryn

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3773: February 11, 2014, 09:16:19 PM »
So Rabisu wrote a bunch of stuff which was posthumously delivered to his son. Some of it concerning SA is here. (This particular bit was written RL 6 months ago.)
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3774: February 11, 2014, 10:49:47 PM »
Then tell me Indirik, how did he get power then? Only the Elders have the power to promote.
Enoch was far from an unknown quantity. As I stated elsewhere, he gave every sign of being a faithful and loyal follower of both the church and the Stars. For example:
  • Vocal support of the church
  • Undertaking far-traveling religious pilgrimages
  • Fighting in the Crusade against Niselur as a noble of Astrum
  • No known past association with Jonsu
  • Never spoke out negatively/adversely about the church or the Elder council
  • Frequently spoke quite rationally and effectively as a full member of the church
  • Successfully campaigned and won a Consul position
  • Gave several good explanations when running for Regent. Wasn't over-eager, and showed no signs of wanting to do any kind of major overhaul or upheaval

Enoch gave every sign of being a faithful member of the church, with absolutely no signs of being any kind of disruptive presence. Everything was going along just swimmingly. And then suddenly one day "HAH AHA! JONSU IS REGENT!!!!!!11!"

Why do you think so many people got so angry about this? Did you think everyone was mad because they're not the ones in power anymore?
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Dishman

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3775: February 11, 2014, 11:55:06 PM »
Enoch was far from an unknown quantity. As I stated elsewhere, he gave every sign of being a faithful and loyal follower of both the church and the Stars. For example:
  • Vocal support of the church
  • Undertaking far-traveling religious pilgrimages
  • Fighting in the Crusade against Niselur as a noble of Astrum
  • No known past association with Jonsu
  • Never spoke out negatively/adversely about the church or the Elder council
  • Frequently spoke quite rationally and effectively as a full member of the church
  • Successfully campaigned and won a Consul position
  • Gave several good explanations when running for Regent. Wasn't over-eager, and showed no signs of wanting to do any kind of major overhaul or upheaval

Enoch gave every sign of being a faithful member of the church, with absolutely no signs of being any kind of disruptive presence. Everything was going along just swimmingly. And then suddenly one day "HAH AHA! JONSU IS REGENT!!!!!!11!"

Why do you think so many people got so angry about this? Did you think everyone was mad because they're not the ones in power anymore?

I wouldn't argue with that list. Enoch wasn't as active as many to the general assembly, but he did smooze the elders. That list does leave out some important things. How and why can spin most of that list into a reason never to give them power and to boot them immediately. One example: Enoch's 'pilgrimage' was a joy-rid through theocracies. He took fat rurals, sold the food to the highest bidder, fought a few battles at his leisure, then moved on when bored (not to mention looting Darfix and fomenting heresies in the theocracy). It seemed obvious at the time, but those on the top were busy and over-eager for cannon-fodder. I was going to openly recruit for Mysticism, but I thought it would be a sure give-away. I messaged a few advys and some nobles and tried to probe them to see if they would expose me, but probably not enough.

I would argue, however, that "Everything was going along just swimmingly". Terran failed, Niselur failed, the defense of Astrum failed, and the Inquisition failed. Along with monsters sprouting up and a heretic in supreme power....I'd say SA got off lucky so far.

To be honest, I'm not even sure why Jonsu was originally booted from SA. I know she tried to start her own religions, but the only salient memory of when she was in the church was when SHE WAS HUNTING FOR MYSTICS AS AN ELDER OF THE CHURCH. Even if you hate me and my character, you have to admit that it is fitting to hand the church to the only person who even got a sniff of what was going on. Jonsu did (and will) do things more in the church's favor than anything Enoch did.

Enoch had three initiatives as his Regency campaign. A kind of food bank (which I planned to pilfer), revise the charter (distraction if I ever needed it), and retake Terran (to war against the daimons). None of those plans got any traction from those who were in the position to further them. The biggest hindrance to all of my schemes and plans was the apathy and resignation in SA. You wouldn't think from how people talk. I don't know how much bait I threw out for how many other schemes. Too distracted by their own affairs to deal with the prophet's second, I suppose.
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Daycryn

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3776: February 12, 2014, 12:18:07 AM »
I wouldn't argue with that list. Enoch wasn't as active as many to the general assembly, but he did smooze the elders. That list does leave out some important things. How and why can spin most of that list into a reason never to give them power and to boot them immediately. One example: Enoch's 'pilgrimage' was a joy-rid through theocracies. He took fat rurals, sold the food to the highest bidder, fought a few battles at his leisure, then moved on when bored (not to mention looting Darfix and fomenting heresies in the theocracy). It seemed obvious at the time, but those on the top were busy and over-eager for cannon-fodder.

Every bit of this is news to me, and not because I was busy and over-eager, but because if this happened at all, it happened in secret.

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I would argue, however, that "Everything was going along just swimmingly". Terran failed, Niselur failed, the defense of Astrum failed, and the Inquisition failed. Along with monsters sprouting up and a heretic in supreme power....I'd say SA got off lucky so far.

Terran, Niselur, Astrum, and the Inquisition were however all roleplayed big events which everyone could participate in because none of them happened in secret. The Inquisition itself was barely getting started when Jonsu became Prophet and declared the Inquisition was over. From a RP perspective things were going great. Now? Well, maybe everyone is having secret roleplays with themselves. How fun.

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To be honest, I'm not even sure why Jonsu was originally booted from SA. I know she tried to start her own religions, but the only salient memory of when she was in the church was when SHE WAS HUNTING FOR MYSTICS AS AN ELDER OF THE CHURCH. Even if you hate me and my character, you have to admit that it is fitting to hand the church to the only person who even got a sniff of what was going on. Jonsu did (and will) do things more in the church's favor than anything Enoch did.

Sigh. She was booted from the Church for attempting to do exactly everything she is now doing.

There is nothing "fitting" about a convicted heretic becoming the equivalent of the Pope. The word for that is "ridiculous." "Contrived" and "implausible" and "game-breaking" also work.
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Dishman

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3777: February 12, 2014, 12:48:56 AM »
Every bit of this is news to me, and not because I was busy and over-eager, but because if this happened at all, it happened in secret.

Well...yeah, from you. Rabisu got the friendliest and most helpful face Enoch had. How many failed projects did he try to work with Rabisu on? Weekly sermons, diplomacy efforts, general priest nonesense. How many actually got anywhere? The only one that I recall, was your Inquisition addition to the charter, which Enoch didn't help a bit with. All he said was "lets not be cautious using this".

Terran, Niselur, Astrum, and the Inquisition were however all roleplayed big events which everyone could participate in because none of them happened in secret. The Inquisition itself was barely getting started when Jonsu became Prophet and declared the Inquisition was over. From a RP perspective things were going great. Now? Well, maybe everyone is having secret roleplays with themselves. How fun.

Touche'. I had expected more people to engage the schism RP. I do hope there are some secret roleplays in tight circles of trust.

Though, How many people had their hands in the Inquisition amendment? How many in the surrender of Astrum or Niselur's sudden change to monarchy? If you think I undid the church (which I didn't) all by myself then you misunderstand.

There is nothing "fitting" about a convicted heretic becoming the equivalent of the Pope. The word for that is "ridiculous." "Contrived" and "implausible" and "game-breaking" also work.

Yeah, but I didn't say she was Pope, now did I. She was the prophet. A second coming of a religious figure (basically) worshiped. It might seem contrived, but there was this one time a jewish carpenter ran afoul with his church and then some crazy stuff happened. I don't think he ever even helped run it.
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Chenier

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3778: February 12, 2014, 03:00:06 AM »
Well since you're the first person in history to find inconsistency with religious teachings, I guess that makes you either a heretic or a prophet. But whether he gave himself the title or others bestowed it on him doesn't matter. He was a heretic who became the figurehead of a DIFFERENT religious order.

Therein lies the important distinction.
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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3779: February 12, 2014, 03:26:38 AM »
Therein lies the important distinction.
It's only an important distinction if SA is supposed to mirror Christianity exactly. Somebody else said that basically it was unimaginable that an obscure heretic could become the equivalent of the pope, and I was simply pointing out that that's a bollocks argument. It's perfectly believable in the context of a medieval religion.