Author Topic: Sanguis Astroism  (Read 1016092 times)

Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #90: November 01, 2011, 11:17:18 PM »
I fail to see how anything good can come of this from Terran's perspective. What on earth could Terran stand to gain in this situation through conflict, military or political? They've somehow managed over the course of a few days to badly damage Terran's relations with the Theocracies, which is really saying something... Terran had a fair amount of goodwill built up with us.

That's a modern speaking.

You assume "Terran" has a perspective. It doesn't. Numerous Terran nobles have perspectives. As it would happen, one of them is a former duke who built a large power base for himself, slowly building up a reputation for competent domestic management, and deft handling of issues, foreign and domestic. If Hireshmont doesn't get what he wants in this affair, it'll be the first time he's ever lost: at anything, ever. He isn't used to losing.

Plus, there's a huge culture gap. For Hireshmont, not commenting on the exact details of a treaty is pure animalistic barbarism. As far as he concerned, we are separated from the monsters by our ability to write complex legal documents. Thus, Brance's arguments are pissing him off.... because Hireshmont has always argued in Terran for friendly ties with Astroist and a very moderate stance towards Astroism, based on the fact that they were decent, civilized realms, sharing the goal of pacifying the wilds... but this conflict is causing an existential crisis for Hireshmont as he wonders if Astroists are actually humans, because they seem incapable of negotiating a treaty, which means, obviously, they're not actually humans.
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dustole

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #91: November 02, 2011, 01:06:19 AM »
I really like that Allison can sit back and not get involved in this Astrum/Terran conflict.  Its gotta be earning me some points with Astrum.  Plus this gives me someone in the area to not like.  I was worried that the only realm I would have to pick a fight with would be D'hara...  now I have a reason to pester Terran sometime in the future.
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Adriddae

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #92: November 02, 2011, 01:07:46 AM »
I wonder whats up with Allison. I haven't heard anything about her in weeks! Whats going on!?

Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #93: November 02, 2011, 01:09:01 AM »
Plus this gives me someone in the area to not like.
You're welcome.  ;D
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dustole

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #94: November 02, 2011, 02:14:00 AM »
I wonder whats up with Allison. I haven't heard anything about her in weeks! Whats going on!?


Organizing a new realm is harder than I thought it would be.  Not having a way to message "everyone" loyal to me is hard.  I have to keep track of what everyone is doing and they tend to blend in with the nobles of Astrum.  Finding food to make sure Golden Farrow stayed fed until we could get some rurals was tough too.  The short version is that I don't have time to cause trouble because I am too busy with other stuff.  Plus I'm being deliberately "good" while a guest in Astrum.  They took the brunt of my meddling when I helped persuade Caerwyn to attack them and then they let me move there and take over Golden Farrow.  Allison can't always be a bitch.  She's gotta be good from time to time to balance out all the crazy ass !@#$ she does.
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #95: November 02, 2011, 03:40:40 AM »
If Hireshmont doesn't get what he wants in this affair, it'll be the first time he's ever lost: at anything, ever. He isn't used to losing.
Meh, everyone has to lose every now and then.

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Plus, there's a huge culture gap.
Oh, definitely.

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For Hireshmont, not commenting on the exact details of a treaty is pure animalistic barbarism.
But as Brance demonstrated, Hireshmont never actually proposed a treaty. He stated the goals he would like achieve during the treaty negotiation. i.e. "We would like to come up with a treaty that covers the following points", not "We would like to propose the following treaty". A subtle, perhaps, but substantial difference. Even the wording of the points provided was completely unlike anything I've ever seen in a treaty, and bore no resemblance at all to the treaty Terran signed with Asylon.  Then when Hireshmont actually did send it as a true proposal, the first sentence of his message was "You lie.", and then he continued to attempt to embarrass and insult Brance. At that point, Brance had no intention of even discussing the matter with the rude Terrans.

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As far as he concerned, we are separated from the monsters by our ability to write complex legal documents. Thus, Brance's arguments are pissing him off.... because Hireshmont has always argued in Terran for friendly ties with Astroist and a very moderate stance towards Astroism, based on the fact that they were decent, civilized realms, sharing the goal of pacifying the wilds... but this conflict is causing an existential crisis for Hireshmont as he wonders if Astroists are actually humans, because they seem incapable of negotiating a treaty, which means, obviously, they're not actually humans.
Brance is mad at Hireshmont because, from Brance's viewpoint, Terran stuck its nose in where it didn't belong, claiming lands it had no business claiming, and declaring that the whole thing was "a done deal, and please kindly refrain from taking our land, thankyouverymuch!" Then when "negotiations" started, Terran approached with a proposal where, essentially, everything in it was non-negotiable, and refused Brance's request that all the disputed territories remained untaken, whereas Hireshmont declared that Terran would take one region, and Astrum would take none. There was, literally, no room at all in the agreement for which Brance could negotiate.

From there, it only got worse and worse. I'm pretty sure that everything Brance and Hireshmont said to each other pissed the other one off. The whole thing was quite interesting. I'm sure that at some time in the future, this whole mess will come back and haunt everyone.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #96: November 02, 2011, 04:04:17 AM »
I think those letters from Terran is pissing off everyone in the realm council of Astrum. No one is defending Terran on that. Terran will have to get their lands by force.

JPierreD

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #97: November 02, 2011, 04:48:39 AM »
I'm sure that at some time in the future, this whole mess will come back and haunt everyone.

Then better Terran starts burning Farrowfield and Golden Farrow before it becomes a threat.  8)
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Zakilevo

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #98: November 02, 2011, 04:53:00 AM »
LOL who is burning who? I think you got the two mixed up :)

Perth

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #99: November 02, 2011, 04:53:07 AM »
Brance is mad at Hireshmont because, from Brance's viewpoint, Terran stuck its nose in where it didn't belong, claiming lands it had no business claiming, and declaring that the whole thing was "a done deal, and please kindly refrain from taking our land, thankyouverymuch!" Then when "negotiations" started, Terran approached with a proposal where, essentially, everything in it was non-negotiable, and refused Brance's request that all the disputed territories remained untaken, whereas Hireshmont declared that Terran would take one region, and Astrum would take none. There was, literally, no room at all in the agreement for which Brance could negotiate.

This is so interesting because this is pretty much exactly how the whole Terran Senate feel's about Astrum on this issue. They see Astrum as stranger to the area, a much stronger one, who has come and "stuck its nose in where it didn't belong, claiming lands it had no business claiming" and because everyone in Terran knows Astrum is much stronger there is a very gut-wrenching feeling that Astrum is trying to threaten and bully Terran. And now, since it seems Brance simply refuses to even talk about the actual negotiations of land claims, the Senate feels as if Brance is trying to humiliate their Chief Magistrate and purposefully damage Terran's reputation, no doubt as an excuse to yet bully Terran even more.

Furthermore, Kale (one of Terran's oldest members and the de-facto leader of the northern parts of Terran) feels as if an attack by the murderous barbarian hordes of the north is imminent and is stressing about it.


This has all been a very entertaining and interesting issue to watch.  ;D



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Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #100: November 02, 2011, 04:54:10 AM »
@Zakilevo: Ditto to you.

Everyone in Astroism thinks Terran is being rude.

Everyone among Terran's allies thinks Brance is being rude.

@Indirik:
The idea that Hireshmont didn't propose a treaty is just silly. If he had written up a formal document that said the same thing, he'd be lambasted as not giving Astrum a chance to contribute to it as well. And besides: it's not like Brance ever proposed anything. And it's now been a few days since Hireshmont did propose a formal treaty. Quite a simple one. Mostly using small words. Covering only very specific issues. Recognizing the regions Astrum claimed before this fiasco.

Moreover, you did negotiate on these points, so I'm not sure how you think there was no room for negotiation when, clearly, negotiate is exactly what you did. Terran set four conditions for an agreement. The colony rejected at least one of them. Terran is still actively seeking an agreement. How peculiar.

You can phrase it as Terran taking one and Astrum taking none. Or you can phrase it as Terran abstaining from 1 and Astrum abstaining from 1. Terran could have taken Faithhill and Lavendrow (we had 2 separate armies available on hand for deployment), but obviously forbears now, because we said we wouldn't do that. Caerwyn could not realistically have taken two of the regions by now.

You can't honestly say that one of those perspectives is fundamentally and objectively a more true way of viewing the situation. We pick based on what is politically convenient.

@JPierreD: Terran will not start a war as long as Hireshmont governs. Just not gonna' happen.
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Phellan

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #101: November 02, 2011, 05:05:54 AM »
Ooo

I can't wait till Terran, D'Hara, and Barca go fighting up north to leave Madina alone with Aurvandil.


Perth

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #102: November 02, 2011, 05:20:26 AM »
Ooo

I can't wait till Terran, D'Hara, and Barca go fighting up north to leave Madina alone with Aurvandil.

If war did come, I do not think we'de be doing much "going up north" as much as "defending down south."  :(
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Galvez

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #103: November 02, 2011, 07:39:02 AM »
@JPierreD: Terran will not start a war as long as Hireshmont governs. Just not gonna' happen.
You want to get rid of Allison as well.

Ooo

I can't wait till Terran, D'Hara, and Barca go fighting up north to leave Madina alone with Aurvandil.
We are already leaving you alone with Aurvandil. 'Moot armies going north wouldn't change anything about the situation in the south.

If war did come, I do not think we'de be doing much "going up north" as much as "defending down south."  :(
We involve Asylon as well.
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Carna

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #104: November 02, 2011, 08:16:17 AM »
Well yeah, presumably Terran's treaty with Asylon is the reason that Terran won't be iniating any open hostilities. A D'Haran infiltrator here or there...

And c'mon, who doesn't want rid of Allison? She's psychotic. I say that as a compliment. Sort of. If Barca was sitting next to Golden Farrow (y'know, rather than next to the Zuma), I think Julius might want rid of Allison too. Not exactly a stable border Terran can rely on.

It won't come to war though. The north would probably crush the Federation, but just as much the new colony would have far more difficulty kicking off. I may be wrong, but I suspect the outcome of this will simply be a tense border between one side and the other and a dip in real relations. Ideally, things will settle down so more lands can be colonized thanks to the new estate system before we agree that the north can have Askilion and everything above that and the southwest can have Giask and Shinnen duchies. It makes sense. No one genuinely likes the Lurians anyway.

:)

Finn.