Author Topic: Sanguis Astroism  (Read 1017600 times)

egamma

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #225: December 23, 2011, 05:28:47 PM »
Our characters might remember that, if the Moot wasn't so keen on being secretive. My character only learnt the moot even exists a few weeks ago, and still has no idea what it does.

We're like the European Union.

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #226: December 23, 2011, 05:37:48 PM »
We're like the European Union.

So who's Greece? And Belgium? :P

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #227: December 23, 2011, 10:37:49 PM »
Our characters might remember that, if the Moot wasn't so keen on being secretive. My character only learnt the moot even exists a few weeks ago, and still has no idea what it does.

Secretive? We're not secretive at all.
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vanKaya

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #228: December 24, 2011, 12:56:32 AM »
Our characters might remember that, if the Moot wasn't so keen on being secretive. My character only learnt the moot even exists a few weeks ago, and still has no idea what it does.

To be fair, there is very little interaction going on between the 'Moot and the Lurias on a player to player basis (as far as I know). I have noticed a lot of Lurian players that complain that the 'Moot is secretive, or, more accurately, that we do not advertise our purpose. I think this is a hypocritical position to take since the only reason players of the 'Moot have any semblance of a notion as to what the Lurian "alliance" (or whatever you would call it) is, comes from the fact that all those realms were friendly colonies of PeL. Thus, with a little intuition, a 'Moot player can look at the Lurian kingdoms (i.e. PeL, LN and Solaria), look at their diplomatic relations with each other and safely conclude that this is a bloc of cooperative nations. Our understanding of the Lurias does not extend any further than that.

What surprises me is when high ups in the Lurian Kingdoms cannot put two and two together and use their keen sense of deduction to realize that the realms of Barca, D'hara and Terran are federated and as such they are simply another power-bloc that is based on cultural and geographical similarities, much like the Lurias (and much like SA). They don't even have to know that the alliance is referred to as the Veinsormoot to understand the fundamental nature of the alliance.

I understand that the name Veinsormoot (which is gibberish if I understand correctly) can be confusing at first, however, there is a very clear and well organized wiki page describing the nature and mandate of the 'Moot. The Wiki is IC knowledge, much like a library, and to think that a Duke in the Lurias or even a Lord, would be so caught up in their own affairs that they would refuse to take the initiative and learn at least the mere basics of their neighbors, and potential rivals, is very, very un-SMA.



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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #229: December 24, 2011, 02:10:05 AM »

What surprises me is when high ups in the Lurian Kingdoms cannot put two and two together and use their keen sense of deduction to realize that the realms of Barca, D'hara and Terran are federated and as such they are simply another power-bloc that is based on cultural and geographical similarities, much like the Lurias (and much like SA). They don't even have to know that the alliance is referred to as the Veinsormoot to understand the fundamental nature of the alliance.


What surprises me is that you think that knowing that Barca D'Hara and Terran are a federated Power Block instantly reveals the purpose of the Moot. We know of the relations between the three realms, we don't necessarily know what the Moot is for.

To be fair, there is very little interaction going on between the 'Moot and the Lurias on a player to player basis (as far as I know). I have noticed a lot of Lurian players that complain that the 'Moot is secretive, or, more accurately, that we do not advertise our purpose. I think this is a hypocritical position to take since the only reason players of the 'Moot have any semblance of a notion as to what the Lurian "alliance" (or whatever you would call it) is, comes from the fact that all those realms were friendly colonies of PeL. Thus, with a little intuition, a 'Moot player can look at the Lurian kingdoms (i.e. PeL, LN and Solaria), look at their diplomatic relations with each other and safely conclude that this is a bloc of cooperative nations. Our understanding of the Lurias does not extend any further than that.


Like has been said numerious times, IC we don't care that much if we know about the moot. We do get tired of the attitude that some have in these forums that we should be taking the Moot seriously, or somehow know IC how the Moot relates to the federation. Of course we as the players know what the Moot is for, but our characters may have much less knowledge. We don't run around expecting other nations to know anything about the Halls of Luria for example.


I understand that the name Veinsormoot (which is gibberish if I understand correctly) can be confusing at first, however, there is a very clear and well organized wiki page describing the nature and mandate of the 'Moot. The Wiki is IC knowledge, much like a library, and to think that a Duke in the Lurias or even a Lord, would be so caught up in their own affairs that they would refuse to take the initiative and learn at least the mere basics of their neighbors, and potential rivals, is very, very un-SMA.


The wiki can be considered IG knowledge, but it is unreasonable to expect every character to have read every available "book" from the wiki. Luria does have a Royal Archivist, I'm sure when she has had the time to review documents about the Moot and have them added to our libraries we will all be better informed.

Besides it is quite in keeping with SMA to underestimate your opponents and just assume that your forces are naturally superior. History hardly suggests that all high ranking nobles bothered to learn anything of real merit about the opposing forces, beyond basic military intelligence.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 02:11:56 AM by De-Legro »
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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #230: December 24, 2011, 02:25:41 AM »
To be fair, there is very little interaction going on between the 'Moot and the Lurias on a player to player basis (as far as I know). I have noticed a lot of Lurian players that complain that the 'Moot is secretive, or, more accurately, that we do not advertise our purpose. I think this is a hypocritical position to take since the only reason players of the 'Moot have any semblance of a notion as to what the Lurian "alliance" (or whatever you would call it) is, comes from the fact that all those realms were friendly colonies of PeL. Thus, with a little intuition, a 'Moot player can look at the Lurian kingdoms (i.e. PeL, LN and Solaria), look at their diplomatic relations with each other and safely conclude that this is a bloc of cooperative nations. Our understanding of the Lurias does not extend any further than that.

What surprises me is when high ups in the Lurian Kingdoms cannot put two and two together and use their keen sense of deduction to realize that the realms of Barca, D'hara and Terran are federated and as such they are simply another power-bloc that is based on cultural and geographical similarities, much like the Lurias (and much like SA). They don't even have to know that the alliance is referred to as the Veinsormoot to understand the fundamental nature of the alliance.

You're assuming two things.  1. That anyone in Luria expects anyone outside of Luria to know what's going on in Luria, and 2. That most Lurians care at all about what is going on beyond Luria.  Neither assumption is accurate.  Koli and a few others are attempting to change both of those things, but that's for purely religious reasons.

Quote
I understand that the name Veinsormoot (which is gibberish if I understand correctly) can be confusing at first, however, there is a very clear and well organized wiki page describing the nature and mandate of the 'Moot. The Wiki is IC knowledge, much like a library, and to think that a Duke in the Lurias or even a Lord, would be so caught up in their own affairs that they would refuse to take the initiative and learn at least the mere basics of their neighbors, and potential rivals, is very, very un-SMA.

You're kidding, right?  Do you think lords in the Christian Kingdoms knew anything about how the Muslim world was organized?  There were heads of state in the seventeenth century, much less earlier, who didn't know the first thing about non-Christian lands.

Luria is the single most isolated and isolationist place I've even seen in Battlemaster.  Getting Lurians to care about Fissoa is difficult.
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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #231: December 24, 2011, 03:03:35 AM »
There were heads of state in the seventeenth century, much less earlier, who didn't know the first thing about non-Christian lands.

Or sometimes even 20th, or 21st....



Frankly I love the fact that every region of Dwilight is so different and they all have super vague ideas of what the other areas are like and normally huge misconceptions and assumptions of what those people are like. It's awesome. You don't see it anywhere else really in Battlemaster. Sure, many realms have unique cultures, but nothing like it is on Dwilight. This is probably one of the most SMA things about Dwilight--the narrow-minded and ignorant and often arrogant attitude taken towards other regions and cultures. They're weirdos, they're barbarians, they're nut-cases who follow some funky religion. In all actually we know next to nothing about these people, and because of that we don't like them, or are scared of them, or think they're lesser than us. And that is awesome. That seems like a Serious Medieval Atmosphere.
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Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #232: December 24, 2011, 03:11:33 AM »
You're kidding, right?  Do you think lords in the Christian Kingdoms knew anything about how the Muslim world was organized?  There were heads of state in the seventeenth century, much less earlier, who didn't know the first thing about non-Christian lands.

Some did, some didn't. I imagine that Muslim leaders in Cairo, Damascus, or Baghdad had a reasonable idea how Christian leaders in Constantinople, Rome, or Bulgaria operated. That's a comparable distance to Lurias/Moot. Except the Moot is, in some cases, actually even closer; maybe more comparable to Sicily or Beneventum related to North Africa, especially in D'Hara's case.

Whatever the case, however, it sounds like it's time for Hireshmont to go on another trip...
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Perth

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #233: December 24, 2011, 03:14:16 AM »
Some did, some didn't. I imagine that Muslim leaders in Cairo, Damascus, or Baghdad had a reasonable idea how Christian leaders in Constantinople, Rome, or Bulgaria operated. That's a comparable distance to Lurias/Moot. Except the Moot is, in some cases, actually even closer; maybe more comparable to Sicily or Beneventum related to North Africa, especially in D'Hara's case.

To see a layover map of Dwilight and Europe, just for distance comparisons would be a lot of fun/interesting.
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Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #234: December 24, 2011, 03:46:49 AM »
To see a layover map of Dwilight and Europe, just for distance comparisons would be a lot of fun/interesting.

Yeah; it's tricky though, because Dwilight's longest dimension is on a different axis, and distance is sometimes less about "as the crow flies" and more about the ratio of roads and navigable seas to mountains and pirates.

But a layover map would still be conceptually useful.
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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #235: December 24, 2011, 03:57:45 AM »
Yeah; it's tricky though, because Dwilight's longest dimension is on a different axis, and distance is sometimes less about "as the crow flies" and more about the ratio of roads and navigable seas to mountains and pirates.

But a layover map would still be conceptually useful.

Yeah, of course it would all be "roughly" but it would be cool.
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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #236: December 24, 2011, 04:29:16 AM »
You're assuming two things.  1. That anyone in Luria expects anyone outside of Luria to know what's going on in Luria, and 2. That most Lurians care at all about what is going on beyond Luria.  Neither assumption is accurate.  Koli and a few others are attempting to change both of those things, but that's for purely religious reasons.

You're kidding, right?  Do you think lords in the Christian Kingdoms knew anything about how the Muslim world was organized?  There were heads of state in the seventeenth century, much less earlier, who didn't know the first thing about non-Christian lands.

Luria is the single most isolated and isolationist place I've even seen in Battlemaster.  Getting Lurians to care about Fissoa is difficult.

Look, every morning my character wakes up, and, as a member of the social and political elite (as all of us are), his scribe presents to him pertinent information on a variety of issues. One of those pieces of information is a scroll which outlines the known diplomatic relations of all the continent's realms. By this information, and essentially this information alone, he is able to piece together that the realms of Luria Nova, PeL and Solaria are in an alliance. I don't know the details of this alliance but it's safe to assume it involves mutual defense and cooperation to some degree. Boom, my character understands the fundamental basics of the Lurian political situation. I don't know about the Halls of Luria just like the Lurians can't be expected to know that our alliance is called the Veinsormoot, but come on? You had NO idea of the alliance thats right smack in front of you?

The impression I get of the Lurian nobility is that they are willfully and purposefully ignorant.

"Herrr my scribes showed me a chart showing that Terran, D'hara and Barca are Federated. What does that mean, derrrrrrr"

(no offense, just trying to make a point. Seriously, do not be offended. Please.)

And its not SMA to be unaware of the political situation around you. Alliances around this time were a large part built around deterring attacks and most alliances were very public knowledge. Luria claiming it doesn't know about D'hara's alliance with Terran and Barca is like France not being aware of the Anglo-Portuguese alliance, it's absurd.

I'm not saying Luria should care at all about the alliance beside them, but it is unrealistic to say that they wouldn't at least be aware of it's existence.
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De-Legro

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #237: December 24, 2011, 04:48:05 AM »
Look, every morning my character wakes up, and, as a member of the social and political elite (as all of us are), his scribe presents to him pertinent information on a variety of issues. One of those pieces of information is a scroll which outlines the known diplomatic relations of all the continent's realms. By this information, and essentially this information alone, he is able to piece together that the realms of Luria Nova, PeL and Solaria are in an alliance. I don't know the details of this alliance but it's safe to assume it involves mutual defense and cooperation to some degree. Boom, my character understands the fundamental basics of the Lurian political situation. I don't know about the Halls of Luria just like the Lurians can't be expected to know that our alliance is called the Veinsormoot, but come on? You had NO idea of the alliance thats right smack in front of you?

The impression I get of the Lurian nobility is that they are willfully and purposefully ignorant.

"Herrr my scribes showed me a chart showing that Terran, D'hara and Barca are Federated. What does that mean, derrrrrrr"

(no offense, just trying to make a point. Seriously, do not be offended. Please.)

And its not SMA to be unaware of the political situation around you. Alliances around this time were a large part built around deterring attacks and most alliances were very public knowledge. Luria claiming it doesn't know about D'hara's alliance with Terran and Barca is like France not being aware of the Anglo-Portuguese alliance, it's absurd.

I'm not saying Luria should care at all about the alliance beside them, but it is unrealistic to say that they wouldn't at least be aware of it's existence.

We never said we didn't know about the Federation, that was your position. We did say our characters have no idea what the goals and purpose of the Moot are, though most of us have become aware of its existence due mostly to the Zuma incident.

I don't know why you harp on about Lurians not knowing about D'Hara's alliance. It is probably the only thing that prevented an invasion of D'Hara a few months back.

Quote
And its not SMA to be unaware of the political situation around you. Alliances around this time were a large part built around deterring attacks and most alliances were very public knowledge. Luria claiming it doesn't know about D'hara's alliance with Terran and Barca is like France not being aware of the Anglo-Portuguese alliance, it's absurd.

Actually they were just as much about offense as defense. As such often the first you knew about a new alliance, was when a co-ordinated attack appeared. I'm sure you can think of MANY reasons two medieval realms would have wished to keep an alliance secret, or to keep the true extent or details of the alliance hidden.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 04:53:45 AM by De-Legro »
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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #238: December 24, 2011, 05:11:18 AM »
...Terran, D'hara and Barca are Federated.
Wait... they are? Huh.... when did that happen?

While as a player I think that the Veinsormoot is an interesting idea. IC my character has heard the name a few times, but doesn't really care. It's not like the Veinsormoot ever really publicize their existence. Or attempt to inform other realms as to what it does, or stands for. Come to think of it, I wonder if any sovereign rulers will consent to actually deal with the Veinsormoot as a political organization.
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egamma

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #239: December 24, 2011, 05:44:35 AM »
What I don't get is all this...antagonism towards the 'moot. It's on par with the hatred of SA, except that the Moot hasn't gangbanged any realms into nonexistence to justify that hatred. Yes, yes, those attacks were all perfectly justified, those realms just refused to back down, etc. Whatever. They were gangbanged by multiple SA realms, and the Moot has never done anything like that.

So...why do people continually whine and complain that they don't know the purpose of the Moot? Either find out, or ignore it.

Please stop complaining, over and over again, that the easily accessible information from the wiki wasn't shouted at your character in a roleplay. I'm tired of hearing about it.