Author Topic: Sanguis Astroism  (Read 1016307 times)

Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #240: December 24, 2011, 06:08:04 AM »
Wait... they are? Huh.... when did that happen?

Quite some time ago.

While as a player I think that the Veinsormoot is an interesting idea. IC my character has heard the name a few times, but doesn't really care. It's not like the Veinsormoot ever really publicize their existence. Or attempt to inform other realms as to what it does, or stands for. Come to think of it, I wonder if any sovereign rulers will consent to actually deal with the Veinsormoot as a political organization.

This seems very strange, and seems to be a misrepresentation of what I KNOW your character has received.
1. Hireshmont has gone on diplomatic tours to SA lands on 3 separate occasions, every time publicizing the Moot
2. Hireshmont has personally sent Brance (sadly it was apparently too long ago to be in my sent messages archives IG) a fairly long explanation of what the Moot is
3. When the Treaty of the Maroccidens was signed, Hireshmont (though I forget if he was ruler then; Vigilans might have been ruler) sent a letter to all the rulers introducing himself and briefly notifying them of the federation and its contents
4. In practically every diplomatic incident involving any of the 3 Moot realms, Hireshmont has given fairly long-winded explanations of what the Moot is to rulers and dignitaries of other realms
5. Hireshmont has personally invited representatives of Kabrinskia and Astrum to join the Moot which, as he explained it, was a governing body for Barca, D'Hara, and Terran. He invited rulers and ambassadors specifically. What, did Brance think it was a tea party he was being invited to?

And, regarding "sovereign" rulers (as if the Moot isn't a sovereign entity)... yes, they will. At various times, multiple rulers of Asylon and Madina, the ruler of Aurvandil, and a ruler of Fissoa have directly understood themselves to be engaged in diplomacy with the Véinsørmoot as an entity. Realistically, Luria Nova, Pian en Luries, Kabrinskia, and Astrum have all been involved in direct diplomacy with the Moot, but it was not so clearly stated, nor recognized as such by the rulers of said realms.

or ignore it.

I think their contention is that they intend to ignore it, but we keep bringing it up.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #241: December 24, 2011, 07:04:11 AM »
Look, every morning my character wakes up, and, as a member of the social and political elite (as all of us are), his scribe presents to him pertinent information on a variety of issues. One of those pieces of information is a scroll which outlines the known diplomatic relations of all the continent's realms. By this information, and essentially this information alone, he is able to piece together that the realms of Luria Nova, PeL and Solaria are in an alliance. I don't know the details of this alliance but it's safe to assume it involves mutual defense and cooperation to some degree. Boom, my character understands the fundamental basics of the Lurian political situation. I don't know about the Halls of Luria just like the Lurians can't be expected to know that our alliance is called the Veinsormoot, but come on? You had NO idea of the alliance thats right smack in front of you?

Lurian leaders are aware of the Veinsormoot.  Koli is fully aware of the three main realms, that Hireshmont is some sort of spokeperson for a decentralized but fairly unified federation, that Asylon is somewhat associated, that Aurvandil has some relationship with Barca, and that there are disagreements within the 'Moot about Madina and Aurvandil.  Other Lurian leaders are at least aware of the alliance chains, and some of them are certainly aware that the Veinsormoot exists.  But no one, Koli included, has the faintest idea what the point of the 'Moot is, if there is one besides a more formalized alliance.

Your depiction of the Lurian political situation is considerably less certain.  Pian en Luries is allied with Luria Nova, Solaria, and Fissoa, but Solaria isn't allied with Luria Nova or Fissoa, and Luria Nova isn't allied to Fissoa or Solaria.  Luria, at this point, is a polite fiction that certain people are attempting to make more real.

As for learning more about it, Koli is currently on a trip (he has to detour back because the Duchess of Askileon unexpectedly disappeared, but he'll be returning to it shortly) with several purposes, one of which is to learn more about other realms.  It's taken him the entire time since the Duchal Revolution to feel comfortable in leaving Luria, and both IC and OOC I'm not at all certain that wasn't a mistake, as Luria Nova is still incredibly unsettled.  There have almost been three civil wars that I'm aware of since then, and there are still talks about another Lurian internal war.

The 'Moot is really far away in the sense of "effective military action" because there's no chance in hell that any force it might field could actually hurt Luria, so when there are continued civil war dangers, people worry more about that, talk about Fissoa, or the wild lands to the north.  The only reason it's on the horizon at all except for religious reasons is that it makes potential hostilities with D'hara more interesting.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #242: December 24, 2011, 07:05:28 AM »
What I don't get is all this...antagonism towards the 'moot. It's on par with the hatred of SA, except that the Moot hasn't gangbanged any realms into nonexistence to justify that hatred. Yes, yes, those attacks were all perfectly justified, those realms just refused to back down, etc. Whatever. They were gangbanged by multiple SA realms, and the Moot has never done anything like that.

So...why do people continually whine and complain that they don't know the purpose of the Moot? Either find out, or ignore it.

Please stop complaining, over and over again, that the easily accessible information from the wiki wasn't shouted at your character in a roleplay. I'm tired of hearing about it.

As has been explained many times: It's not that we don't know about it.  It's that people in the 'Moot expect that everyone else should. 
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Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #243: December 24, 2011, 07:45:11 AM »
As has been explained many times: It's not that we don't know about it.  It's that people in the 'Moot expect that everyone else should.

I think that idealistically we hope that people will at least give a once-through just-the-highlights read to the various treaties on the Wiki, and the million-and-a-half times we've made various announcements through many channels of our existence.
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De-Legro

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #244: December 24, 2011, 08:39:33 AM »
I think that idealistically we hope that people will at least give a once-through just-the-highlights read to the various treaties on the Wiki, and the million-and-a-half times we've made various announcements through many channels of our existence.

The problem with the wiki is, although it can be regarded as IC info, it is not a mandatory reference. I know quite a few players that never bother to look at it at all. For Dwilight I don't just peruse the wiki for info, I have quite a few guidelines that dictate what parts of the wiki Juan is legitimately going to have access to. I don't brook with the idea that everything on the wiki is going to be found in every library across the island, but that is just a personal preference.
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #245: December 24, 2011, 04:03:15 PM »
do people continually whine and complain that they don't know the purpose of the Moot? Either find out, or ignore it.
Why do people whine and complain that no one takes the Veinsormoot seriously when they don't do anything IC to promote it as a political entity?

I think Brance has only heard of it from one person, Hireshmont. You'd think that if it was important to the member states that foreign powers be aware of the Veinsormoot and deal with it, that they would promote it. Beyond that, though, it is the obligation of the members of an organization to promote themselves if they want people to know about it. You can't just put the info on the wiki and expect people to rush over and read all about it.
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Lorgan

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #246: December 24, 2011, 04:49:40 PM »
Why would foreign leaders recognize the existence of the Moot when all they achieve by that is promoting the union of possibly hostile realms. Only when that union becomes clear through actions aimed against those foreign powers will they have a reason to recognize it, and even then they will find it highly preferable to negotiate with the Moot's members separately.

So if you want the Moot to be recognized around the continent as a supra-national body, promote it by actions, not by words. This united stance (afaik) in dealing with the Zuma is a good start, but still the overwhelming majority of the nobles of Dwilight don't really care about the Zuma and just see those realms that do care band together against a common enemy. Nothing too surprising or out of the ordinary.

Only when other realms notice that they can't get through to barca, terran or d'hara without going through the Moot will they start caring about their relations with that guild. Until then it's just a means of communication between allies in our eyes. Like the Church is for SA and the Halls of Luria are for the Luria's. Nothing more, nothing less.

Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #247: December 24, 2011, 05:15:46 PM »
Why would foreign leaders recognize the existence of the Moot when all they achieve by that is promoting the union of possibly hostile realms. Only when that union becomes clear through actions aimed against those foreign powers will they have a reason to recognize it, and even then they will find it highly preferable to negotiate with the Moot's members separately.

So if you want the Moot to be recognized around the continent as a supra-national body, promote it by actions, not by words. This united stance (afaik) in dealing with the Zuma is a good start, but still the overwhelming majority of the nobles of Dwilight don't really care about the Zuma and just see those realms that do care band together against a common enemy. Nothing too surprising or out of the ordinary.

Only when other realms notice that they can't get through to barca, terran or d'hara without going through the Moot will they start caring about their relations with that guild. Until then it's just a means of communication between allies in our eyes. Like the Church is for SA and the Halls of Luria are for the Luria's. Nothing more, nothing less.

Entirely plausible; I expect that, even. But that wasn't the point. The issue was people saying that they didn't know anything about the Moot. If they know but just don't respect it, I can understand that.

Why do people whine and complain that no one takes the Veinsormoot seriously when they don't do anything IC to promote it as a political entity?

Did you not read my post where I explained that we do promote it politically IC, and I know for a fact that you have received detailed information multiple times?

I think Hireshmont has only heard of Astrum from one person, Brance. You'd think that if it was important to the member nobles that foreign powers be aware of Astrum and deal with it, that they would promote it. Beyond that, though, it is the obligation of the members of an organization to promote themselves if they want people to know about it.

Ah, yes; Astrum. I've only heard about it from Brance, its ruler, so it isn't important and I obviously can't be expected to know anything about it.
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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #248: December 24, 2011, 06:04:06 PM »
Why do people whine and complain that no one takes the Veinsormoot seriously when they don't do anything IC to promote it as a political entity?

I think Brance has only heard of it from one person, Hireshmont. You'd think that if it was important to the member states that foreign powers be aware of the Veinsormoot and deal with it, that they would promote it. Beyond that, though, it is the obligation of the members of an organization to promote themselves if they want people to know about it. You can't just put the info on the wiki and expect people to rush over and read all about it.

Should I post a message in every region I pass through, extolling the virtues of not only the Moot, but Verdis Elementum, the Dwilight Trade Company, and the Libidizedd Trading Company?

Why do you need to know our motivation? I (and Gornak) don't expect anyone to care about the Moot, most of the time. But when you encounter the Moot in a meaningful way, you/your character should then learn all they can about it, or at least enough to deal with the current situation, whatever that is.

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #249: December 24, 2011, 06:35:27 PM »
Nevermind them they are just trying to be cool dood winners of Battlemaster... I know what the moot is and thats all that matters in this life. 8)
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Bedwyr

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #250: December 24, 2011, 07:26:07 PM »
I think that idealistically we hope that people will at least give a once-through just-the-highlights read to the various treaties on the Wiki, and the million-and-a-half times we've made various announcements through many channels of our existence.

And the people who are involved with foreign affairs in Luria have.  As soon as Koli found out about it after one of the incidents with D'hara, he pulled info on it from every library he could, and shared it with the Lurians who were involved with foreign affairs.

The idea that everyone down to region lords in Luria is involved in foreign affairs is the part I find ludicrous.  The Rulers and Ambassadors know.  Some of the rest of the Councils do.  At a guess only one of the current Dukes does, and that's only barely and tangentially.
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #251: December 24, 2011, 08:17:57 PM »
Why do you need to know our motivation? I (and Gornak) don't expect anyone to care about the Moot, most of the time. But when you encounter the Moot in a meaningful way, you/your character should then learn all they can about it, or at least enough to deal with the current situation, whatever that is.
I have never encountered the Veinsormoot in-game in a meaningful way. Hireshmont has mentioned the name once or twice. But so what? I've never had to sign a treaty with the Veinsormoot. I've never had to negotiate a trade agreement with the Veinsormoot. I've never negotiated borders with the Veinsormoot. Yet I do all these things with the various realms that comprise the Veinsormoot. Never once has one of them said "I can't sign that treaty/agreement, you'll have to negotiate with the Veinsormoot."

So, what incentive do I have to deal with the Veinsormoot, or learn anything about it? The members don't promote (except for the occasional mention of the name from Hireshmont). I've never been told to go deal with them. And my dealings with the individual member states have not in any way been impacted, so far as I can tell, by the fact that they are members of this guild. So, considering that I can get everything done that I need to get done without ever having to deal with this Veinsormoot in any way, what incentive do I have to invest the time and effort in learning about it and how to deal with it? As Lorgan even said, the Veinsormoot is actually detrimental to my purposes, as it forces me to deal with the realms as a whole. Which I don't really have to, because the members will deal with me individually.

IMO, if you want people to deal with the Veinsormoot, and make it into something more than just a simple guild, you need to make it easy for them to deal with the guild, and make it to their advantage. Because right now, there is absolutely no incentive to or advantage in dealing with them. I don't know how you're going to do this. Game mechanics don't support it for guilds.
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Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #252: December 24, 2011, 09:04:51 PM »
I have never encountered the Veinsormoot in-game in a meaningful way. Hireshmont has mentioned the name once or twice. But so what? I've never had to sign a treaty with the Veinsormoot. I've never had to negotiate a trade agreement with the Veinsormoot. I've never negotiated borders with the Veinsormoot. Yet I do all these things with the various realms that comprise the Veinsormoot. Never once has one of them said "I can't sign that treaty/agreement, you'll have to negotiate with the Veinsormoot."

So what you're saying is, "No, I don't actually read my messages."

I didn't mention it once or twice. We had about a 3-4 page back and forth about the Moot. You don't seem to recall that, which is strange to me.

Also, you haven't signed a treaty with the Moot, true. To my knowledge you haven't signed a treaty with any realm in the Moot. Nor have you negotiated borders with any realm in the Moot. My memory of it seems to be that Hireshmont and Brance both left rather in a huff.

However, Hireshmont did say at the beginning, before things really got heated, that Hireshmont wouldn't sign an agreement until he had run it by the Moot. Apparently you forgot that as well. Admittedly, I did send quite a few rather long messages.

So, what incentive do I have to deal with the Veinsormoot, or learn anything about it?

The incentive of, if Brance does, he maybe won't continue collectively pissing off all of humanity south of Golden Farrow?

The members don't promote (except for the occasional mention of the name from Hireshmont).

See "sarcastic remark about Astrum." Astrum doesn't promote except for Brance. I can't remember the last time an Astrumite ambassador wandered down here to do or say anything. I know that a Moot representative was in Astrum and Iashalur less than two weeks ago. How 'bout dem applies?

I've never been told to go deal with them.

Yes you have, you just don't remember. And, even then, it'd be a moot point (no pun intended) since most of your interactions were with Hireshmont, who is Mootgram anyways, and compulsive about keeping the Elders informed about everything. Working with Hireshmont is working with the Moot, because he checks everything through the Moot anyways. Though I suppose that isn't necessary something Brance would know; though maybe it should have clued you in that many of our messages included the rulers of D'Hara and Barca, and Hireshmont referenced very close coordination with D'Hara quite a few times.

And my dealings with the individual member states have not in any way been impacted, so far as I can tell, by the fact that they are members of this guild.

Which goes to show that you can't tell very far, because your relations with Terran, at least, have been very greatly affected by Terran's membership in a supranational government, and by Brance (and Allison's) decision to reject participation in it.

So, considering that I can get everything done that I need to get done without ever having to deal with this Veinsormoot in any way, what incentive do I have to invest the time and effort in learning about it and how to deal with it?

Again, because not doing so has already led to the title "Vasilif" being a derogatory term in Terran. I believe I've seen it punned as "Vassalif" a few times. Maybe Brance doesn't care about diplomacy in other realms; in which case he has nothing to gain.

As Lorgan even said, the Veinsormoot is actually detrimental to my purposes, as it forces me to deal with the realms as a whole. Which I don't really have to, because the members will deal with me individually.

The first sentence is reasonable enough; Brance can just make the decision not to work with the Moot. Fine. But, to reiterate, that is not what we were originally talking about. We were talking about the issue of knowing about the Moot, and you claimed that Brance had never really had any encounters with the Moot and so couldn't be expected to know about it. The second sentence is false; to my knowledge, no Moot realm has engaged in any truly substantive independent diplomacy with Astrum. I know D'Hara chats with Astrum occasionally, but I don't think they have any treaties or formal agreements with Astrum. If they do, they must be pretty secret.

IMO, if you want people to deal with the Veinsormoot, and make it into something more than just a simple guild, you need to make it easy for them to deal with the guild, and make it to their advantage.

We're not really struggling to get people to recognize the Moot. Madina, Aurvandil, and the Caerwynian contingent all have formal delegates sent to the Moot (not a specific realm); same is the case for Asylon. The Lurias could have such a thing if they wanted it; I suspect they'll get around to it eventually. Morek has a delegate in the Moot, and has had direct diplomacy with the Moot. Astrum is kind of the odd-man-out. The only significant foreigner, to my knowledge, that has "purely" bilateral relations with a Moot realm is probably Corsanctum with D'Hara.

Because right now, there is absolutely no incentive to or advantage in dealing with them. I don't know how you're going to do this. Game mechanics don't support it for guilds.

Yes there is.

Don't deal with it and you'll find it hard to make any diplomatic progress in the south. That simple. Maybe that doesn't bother you; fine. But if you want to get anything done anywhere in the Maroccidens, or related to it, without issues coming to violence or threats of violence, you go through the Moot. That's not a prescriptive thing, btw, it's descriptive. Historically, in the Maroccidens, you are either in the Moot, or relate directly through formal delegations with the Moot, or you are at war with/actively sabotaged by the Moot. "Peacefully but pointedly ignore" has not yet happened.
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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #253: December 25, 2011, 04:05:49 AM »
The Moot is moot? o.O

Actually OOCly I can see how some pieces might fit together really interestingly, given the posts by that Cross fellow (He's in Morek btw). Y'all remember that stuff he said about poking the Zuma with a stick? Of course, some dude like Indirik will probably immediately deny it or whatever (It's predictable behavior). Don't sweat dudes: It ain't going in-game cuz I don't have any letters proving that stuff. Some dude's probably going to try to get on my case about that, lol. Uh, yeah...I am kept in line, more or less, but haters gonna hate, amirite ppl lol.

But historically speaking, Brance (And kinda Indirik sometim...most of the time...) has been pretty arrogant and I suppose the word is...high handed? You know, when it feels like the dude's thinking he's sitting atop a horse talking down to you.

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #254: December 25, 2011, 05:47:08 AM »
I didn't mention it once or twice. We had about a 3-4 page back and forth about the Moot. You don't seem to recall that, which is strange to me.
We did send several messages back and forth, but they did not focus on the Veinsormoot. It was a very peripheral issue to the border treaty negotiations. I know you discussed it with Allison. Perhaps you're thinking of that.

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Also, you haven't signed a treaty with the Moot, true. To my knowledge you haven't signed a treaty with any realm in the Moot. Nor have you negotiated borders with any realm in the Moot. My memory of it seems to be that Hireshmont and Brance both left rather in a huff.
Yeah, we started, it just never finished. But that negotiation was not with the Veinsormoot. It was between Astrum and Terran. Not Astrum and the Veinsormoot.

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The incentive of, if Brance does, he maybe won't continue collectively pissing off all of humanity south of Golden Farrow?
What's the fun of not making any enemies? Maybe as soon as he finds someone down there worth not pissing off, his opinions will change. But so far, he hasn't been very impressed with most of what he's seen.

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See "sarcastic remark about Astrum." Astrum doesn't promote except for Brance.
Astrum isn't here on the forums complaining about how no one takes them seriously, and how no one understands them, and who they are, etc.

Astrum also isn't a guild. Astrum is a realm. A power structure specifically designed into, and enshrined in the game, around which all game mechanics are built. Anyone can look anywhere and see just about all the information on realms they want to see. Guilds... not so much. So if you want your guild to be visible and influential on that level, then it is incumbent on you to do whatever it takes to make that happen.

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I know that a Moot representative was in Astrum and Iashalur less than two weeks ago. How 'bout dem applies?
A noble from Terran requested passage through Astrum. Which I granted. If he was intended to represent the Veinsormoot to Astrum, he did a piss poor job. The only contact he had with me was to ask if he could pass through. Which he did, without attempting any further contact, or identifying himself as related to the Veinsormoot in any way. Is this what you consider to be representing and promoting the Veinsormoot?

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Yes you have, you just don't remember. And, even then, it'd be a moot point (no pun intended) since most of your interactions were with Hireshmont, who is Mootgram anyways, and compulsive about keeping the Elders informed about everything. Working with Hireshmont is working with the Moot, because he checks everything through the Moot anyways.
It doesn't matter what happens internally to the Veinsormoot, if you don't make clear what is happening to those outside the Veinsormoot. Our characters don't know that's what he does.

I understand that you think that you have been promoting the Veinsormoot. But maybe people aren't seeing your efforts in the way they are intending them. Or maybe you're not being specific enough. Or maybe your attempts to promote have been mixed in with other messages that have overridden the points about the Veinsormoot. Like Hireshmont's offer to provide information about the Zuma. That message also included not-so-veiled threats of Zuma invasions, and how Hireshmont was in good with Haktoo, and how Astrum had better sever all ties with Kabrinskia or else the Zuma would probably invade. No, that's not what you said directly. But that's how several people read the message. So any attempt you may have wanted to present of being helpful was completely lost in the indirect and not-so-indirect threats you presented in your letters.
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