Sanguis Astroism

[Zakilevo]

Dont need to result in extremes...

[Vellos]

I just think it's strange that you can't arrest priests until after you declare war, when arresting priests would seem like a great way to provoke a war. Limiting arrests to after the war doesn't make wars more likely, it makes them less likely, as it establishes high costs for escalation.

[Geronus]

Exactly. I can't see any reason not to be able to do it and I think it adds some options for provoking people. What I like about it is you can provoke another realm with or without your ruler's support; just go ahead and arrest that priest. It also adds something to religious conflict. When a particularly zealous character decides he's offended by the preaching of that idolater from the realm next door, he has a way to vent his righteous anger, and he can do it with or without his ruler's permission. I'm a fan of anything that gives the average knight more ability to stir up trouble for their rulers.

You can argue that the ability to loot anywhere is good enough, but it's not the same. Looting is essentially a crime, and therefore almost impossible to justify to an angry realm council. Arresting a priest on the other hand can be done on principle and is therefore more defensible when your ruler gets upset at you, plus you may be able to get your co-religionists to back you. See? More conflict, politics and intrigue.

More of a discussion for the development thread at this point though.

[dustole]

You can't arrest normal nobles.  It's already an advantage to arrest a priest with a war declaration, but my opinion carries a little less weight since I am the one instagating.

[Velax]

Yes, but what can a "normal noble" do in another realm's regions? Nothing, if he has no unit with him. And if he does, he can be attacked.

[dustole]

A diplomat could do some pretty severe damage to a realm by bribing the minor nobles.   That one isnt overt like preaching.  You dont need a unit and cant be arrested.  You know, priests have high oratory...  Might have to test this out.

[Velax]

Hmm, true. Does seem like there should be a way to stop that. Declaring war to stop a priest preaching or a diplomat bad mouthing you seems a little extreme. Wasn't the treaty system going to cover stuff like this? Passage rights and so on?

[Geronus]

Hmm, true. Does seem like there should be a way to stop that. Declaring war to stop a priest preaching or a diplomat bad mouthing you seems a little extreme. Wasn't the treaty system going to cover stuff like this? Passage rights and so on?

For diplomats, yes. I seem to recall hearing about an 'Expel Diplomats' treaty you could sign against a realm to allow your nobles to arrest diplomats from that realm. However in the absence of that system there's not really much you can do short of declaring war and hoping you arrest the guy while he's moving around. So far as I know there is no chance that a diplomat can be caught and imprisoned for performing any negative actions the way that a priest or infiltrator can, though my experience with the class is limited. Perhaps that should be revisited as a stop gap until the New Treaty System is finished, unless the gold cost for such actions is deemed to be a sufficient balancing factor to counter the impossibility of preventing or stopping such actions short of war.

[Chenier]

I am liking the fact that my priests and I can preach in D'hara and they can't do anything about it.

You talk as if D'Hara was anti-SA. We aren't. Many of our lords follow SA. Why would we do anything against things that don't break the law?

[Chenier]

I just think it's strange that you can't arrest priests until after you declare war, when arresting priests would seem like a great way to provoke a war. Limiting arrests to after the war doesn't make wars more likely, it makes them less likely, as it establishes high costs for escalation.

It didn't use to be this way. Though I dislike priests preaching in my lands without having any easy way of dealing with them, it beats the old way of things where no one would ever care for priests. This no-arrest-without-declaration is necessary for the viability of the priest game, imo.

[dustole]

There is already little enough reason to go to war.  We need more war.  To arrest a noble of a foreign realm is an act of war.  If you arrest a noble you are committing an act of war, which requires you to click the "declare war" button.  Pretty simple.

[Vellos]

There is already little enough reason to go to war.  We need more war.  To arrest a noble of a foreign realm is an act of war.  If you arrest a noble you are committing an act of war, which requires you to click the "declare war" button.  Pretty simple.

Arresting a foreign noble is not an act of war. I can arrest an infiltrator who tries to steal gold without declaring war.

Furthermore, as I've said, the current system doesn't create more wars. It creates less wars, because it raises the cost of provoking wars. Yes, it raises the benefits of war, but that is far less important than the question of the costs to make the actual transition. And, as noted, it means that only a ruler can do anything about a war (click "declare war") while, if arresting were possible, anybody could provoke a war.

[dustole]

Arresting a foreign noble is not an act of war. I can arrest an infiltrator who tries to steal gold without declaring war.

Furthermore, as I've said, the current system doesn't create more wars. It creates less wars, because it raises the cost of provoking wars. Yes, it raises the benefits of war, but that is far less important than the question of the costs to make the actual transition. And, as noted, it means that only a ruler can do anything about a war (click "declare war") while, if arresting were possible, anybody could provoke a war.

You can catch an infiltrator in the midst of committing a crime.  Such as changing signs, stealing gold from the tax office or assaulting a noble for example.  You cannot order your unit to arrest an infiltrator who happens to be passing through your lands and not committing any crimes.  Further, lets say that there are only two nobles in a region.  Realm A and Realm B.  The noble from realm B assaults the noble from realm A and does not get caught, but successfully assaults the noble.  Now, you can infer that the noble from realm B is an infiltrator and you can infer that they are the one that is guilty of the assault.  However you cannot send a police unit to the region and push a button to arrest the Infiltrator. 

If a priest tries to do something that provokes the commoners of a region such as,  Auto Da Fe or declaring yourself Lord of a region and a few other commands like that, then the priest has a chance of being arrested just like an Infiltrator who assaults, steals, etc...

A priest preaching is the lowliest action that a priest can take.  They could be making the peasants hate you or lower their morale or building a shrine.  Preaching isn't something that you should worry about.  It is what happens later, after the preaching that you need to worry about.

[Vellos]

You can catch an infiltrator in the midst of committing a crime.  Such as changing signs, stealing gold from the tax office or assaulting a noble for example.  You cannot order your unit to arrest an infiltrator who happens to be passing through your lands and not committing any crimes.  Further, lets say that there are only two nobles in a region.  Realm A and Realm B.  The noble from realm B assaults the noble from realm A and does not get caught, but successfully assaults the noble.  Now, you can infer that the noble from realm B is an infiltrator and you can infer that they are the one that is guilty of the assault.  However you cannot send a police unit to the region and push a button to arrest the Infiltrator. 

If a priest tries to do something that provokes the commoners of a region such as,  Auto Da Fe or declaring yourself Lord of a region and a few other commands like that, then the priest has a chance of being arrested just like an Infiltrator who assaults, steals, etc...

A priest preaching is the lowliest action that a priest can take.  They could be making the peasants hate you or lower their morale or building a shrine.  Preaching isn't something that you should worry about.  It is what happens later, after the preaching that you need to worry about.

Still doesn't change the fact that the mechanics as they stand reduce rather than increase the possibility of war.

They incentivize going and preaching anywhere (as you said, a mild provocation), but disincentivize arresting the priest (the escalation). More free arresting would disincentivize preaching in unfriendly places (so less mild provocations), but incentivize arresting (the escalation). I tend to think the second is more likely to create wars.

[De-Legro]

Still doesn't change the fact that the mechanics as they stand reduce rather than increase the possibility of war.

They incentivize going and preaching anywhere (as you said, a mild provocation), but disincentivize arresting the priest (the escalation). More free arresting would disincentivize preaching in unfriendly places (so less mild provocations), but incentivize arresting (the escalation). I tend to think the second is more likely to create wars.

Perhaps, but only if it didn't destroy the inventive to actually preach. I think that given the present difficulty for most religions to even get priests (How many religions have only 1 priest?) that making things harder then they already are to preach in other realms would pretty much kill it. In the 4 religions I've had priest in we already "couldn't" preach outside of "allowed" regions, on threat of being banned by our realm. Add in a simple button press to "combat" the few priest that do preach were they want to, and I can't see the practise surviving at all.

I really don't see either case as working to produce wars though, unless the religion is backed up by a realm. Most times I see this sort of thing, the realm just disowns the priest, since really why would they go to war over religion unless it is a theocracy or the ruler happens to share the religion. People SHOULD care that one of their nobles is arrested, but the dominant attitude tends to be, well he was preaching where he shouldn't.