Is it ever acceptable to plan things OOC?

[Nathan]

So, is it?

I'm thinking of situations like a realm becoming silent and boring. Is it acceptable then to say "okay, things are getting boring, what would spice up the realm?". Not saying "let's all hate X realm", but instead asking for ideas on how to take a realm forward and make it more exciting for everyone.

I'm thinking more from the point of view of those in power, as it's the Council's job (and more so the ruler's job) to act as a sort of guiding hand to make sure everything in a realm is still fun for the other players.

[Sacha]

Well, it's a bit of a grey area. If you plan stuff OOC with a small clique, excluding 90% of the realm, nothing is ever discussed IC and it only comes to light when the proper buttons are pushed, then that's wrong. If an OOC idea is sent to a wide audience, and it results in IC interaction and events, then I would say that is fine.

[Indirik]

Well, you first have to decide on what constitutes OOC planning. Take, for instance, the recent Magistrates case. While accusing Toupellon of being formed completely through OOC planning, the following OOC message was sent by one of the Arcachonians:

"I suggest we immediately join in alliance with arcea and carve up this power played realm. This behaviour is dispicable beyond belief."

When someone pointed out that this would be the same OOC behaviour they were complaining about, their response was:

Nah I'm not suggesting ans ooc alliance, but a game based alliance against a common threat. We ought to try to see if the arceans see this unnatural state as a threat or they are happy to go along with it. We can definitely play it in character.

Proposing in an OOC message that your realm goes from war with Arcaea to allied with Arcaea and joins them in attacking someone else isn't OOC planning? Or is it not OOC planning so long as all of your carefully-prepared OOC script is copy/pasted into IG messages?

So, what do you define as OOC planning? And where do you think it crosses the line?

[Stue (DC)]

So, is it?

I'm thinking of situations like a realm becoming silent and boring. Is it acceptable then to say "okay, things are getting boring, what would spice up the realm?". Not saying "let's all hate X realm", but instead asking for ideas on how to take a realm forward and make it more exciting for everyone.

I'm thinking more from the point of view of those in power, as it's the Council's job (and more so the ruler's job) to act as a sort of guiding hand to make sure everything in a realm is still fun for the other players.

can you think about it a little more, and than explain why would you want to plan things ooc, instead of ic? what would be the reason?

having complete boredem in realm should be perfect ic reason to do something, with arguments like realm is in stagnation, nobles are ignored etc. etc.

in reality, however, it often turns out that you cannot get almost anyone to even respond you to a simple letter, except those who are already in power who would, at best, send some polite short answers.

and that is about it, after such an exploration, the only thing you can do is to move elsewhere - to find out that you came into the same problems...

[vonGenf]

I personally think that some OOC discussion between some people is acceptable. It can be useful to prepare things that you want to do a little bit more in-depth before actually starting the implementation. it can also be useful to know if the intended "target" is willing at all to go along in certain RPs. IRC can be the perfect place for that, or personal OOC messages.

When the OOC preparation is done between all characters of a realm (or subset, or guild, or whatever), it becomes a bit of a problem because it crosses the line between playing your character and playing your realm. It is fine to want a realm to advance as a whole and become more fun, but you can't meta-game a character "for the good of the realm".

I think I would draw the line at this point: you should never ask another player to "sign off" on an idea you have OOCly. Nobody has to. Things should grow organically from IC interaction.

[Tom]

Pragmatically speaking, I would be insane to make all OOC planning illegal - how would I even enforce that? It would only make people be secretive about it.

The main problem with OOC planning is exclusion. If you chat in school with your friends, people who aren't in your school can't participate. If you make your discussion open to other players, e.g. by letting them know what you discussed at school, I'm totally fine with people using other channels as well.

[Bedwyr]

Once upon a time, the realm of Arcaea had three regions, was locked into an alliance that prevented it from doing anything, and was basically dead.  Then after some OOC discussions with the whole realm where everyone voted, Queen Trinity declared that it would become a mercenary realm and took Arcaea's first contract helping Arcachon fight Sartania.

And the Far East was never the same!

Generally, exclusion is the only real problem with OOC discussions.  If the whole realm (or religion, or whatever) is involved, then I don't see anything particularly wrong with it.

[vonGenf]

Even when everyone is inlcuded, there can be a bullying side to a OOC "consensus" that I don't like.

I'm guessing there were some people whose characters did not agree with making Arcaea a mercenary realm. When the ruler sends a OOC message saying "I do this for the good of the realm, please go along", don't you think it may stifle legitimate IC feelings?

[JPierreD]

Many times IC is also exclusionary, when small councils/groups decide things between themselves, only messaging each other. Is it wrong that such essentially private conversations take place in IRC, for example, instead of ingame, for the sake of efficiency, as long as it is RPed ingame later?

[Bedwyr]

Even when everyone is inlcuded, there can be a bullying side to a OOC "consensus" that I don't like.

I'm guessing there were some people whose characters did not agree with making Arcaea a mercenary realm. When the ruler sends a OOC message saying "I do this for the good of the realm, please go along", don't you think it may stifle legitimate IC feelings?

If I remember the story correctly (that was before my time) an OOC discussion was started on what to do to spice things up, a couple of suggestions were made, a vote held, and everyone voted for mercenary.

As for the bullying aspect...I don't really see it.  Ruler gets to run the realm, but the player of the Ruler doesn't have any more right to control the realm OOC (leaving aside specific matters of OOC bans and atmosphere) than any other player does.

[vonGenf]

If I remember the story correctly (that was before my time) an OOC discussion was started on what to do to spice things up, a couple of suggestions were made, a vote held, and everyone voted for mercenary.

You mean the vote was held IC? In that case it's not really wrong; although I think it still deprived the realm of possible IC interaction. It's not ideal, but it's acceptable.

If the vote was held OOC, then I strongly disagree with the method. It stifles legitimate play.

[Bedwyr]

You mean the vote was held IC? In that case it's not really wrong; although I think it still deprived the realm of possible IC interaction. It's not ideal, but it's acceptable.

If the vote was held OOC, then I strongly disagree with the method. It stifles legitimate play.

Honestly, I'm not sure.  I have the story second-hand at best from people who were a little hazy on their memories.

[Stue (DC)]

again the same question - what was the exact reason such voting in Arcarea was prepared by ooc discussion? what was purpose of it? if realm was bored ,couldn't ruler just say "we are nobles who want to fight, not to sit in boredom all the time"?

what less would he have than, compared to ooc saying the same?

[Stue (DC)]

Pragmatically speaking, I would be insane to make all OOC planning illegal - how would I even enforce that? It would only make people be secretive about it.

The main problem with OOC planning is exclusion. If you chat in school with your friends, people who aren't in your school can't participate. If you make your discussion open to other players, e.g. by letting them know what you discussed at school, I'm totally fine with people using other channels as well.

exclusion which i see in game mostly come from idea to exclude any possible conflict - aiming to change something in game, political change or similar, but at the same time avoiding clash of ic characters by making some "fair" player to player agreements "in name of higher goals" "because all guys agreed that is best for us" etc. etc. - all that just to ensure desired outcome in advance, instead of playing your character and accepting that outcome will be somewhat unpredictable.
such an approach is more subtle than blatant ooc clan attacks, and it is also more detrimental to any fun, though none of these approaches is frowned upon at all.

such effort to create complex bindings and complex realm hierarchy, different title powers and responsibilities - all that to have monolithic monster-realms in which nothing ever happens.

[Shenron]

I always try and handle it IC and go OOC only when I feel someone is acting completely unmedieval.

And I mean completely. When it's only a slight tinge of modernism I still try and handle it IC with good old noble bigotry and arrogance.