Author Topic: Concepts  (Read 7454 times)

Tom

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Concepts
« Topic Start: October 20, 2011, 01:50:26 PM »
I've got some doubts about the core game concept. Much of it is based on real time (XP gain, energy regeneration, etc.) but the game does not happen in real time.

That's a dissonance that needs to be resolved for everything to work out. Right now, things are awkward and there's a lot of "gaming the system" in there (e.g. wait an hour with your response until you've got enough energy again, etc.)

Nathan

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #1: October 20, 2011, 03:01:51 PM »
How much redesigning are you willing to do? Is there anything you really want to keep the same?

^ban^

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #2: October 20, 2011, 05:35:27 PM »
I'd like to point out the conclusion of an IRC discussion we had yesterday as well: The current magic system is one of the least flexible possible and precludes several otherwise-traditional spellcaster roles from being played effectively. The three mentioned specifically were Illusionist, "nature mage" and Necromancer. Within the framework of the existing magic system, these and other classic archetypes are literally unplayable.

It, additionally, has some very awkward bases (I'm looking at you, Death) which have very little practical application. While it is technically supposed to cover "Unlife", GM rulings on spell research have left it capable of little more than a way to kill, protect yourself from being killed by Death, or find out how someone died. Combined with other facts -- such as the strange or complete lack of interaction between certain bases and intents -- the result is that only one mage archetype is possible: a blaster.

I think the root cause of this awkwardness, as Tim put it yesterday, is that the system's balance is based around proximate end effects and not ultimate effect, leading not only to the issues mentioned above, but things such as extremely high-power zero-usefulness spells. 5/5/5 Fire/Perceive? Compare that to the Body base which works with literally every intent.
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Indirik

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #3: October 20, 2011, 07:18:49 PM »
I tend to agree that the Death base seems to be pointless as it is currently defined. Kind of a generic way to kill someone that could be done with another base just as easily.

I don't think that every possible base/intent combination needs to provide a useful function. Not every substance makes a good material from which to build a particular item. i.e. building a shield out of glass would be pretty pointless. But that doesn't make glass itself useless. From there, it follows that just because you can throw craploads of power into a particular endeavor shouldn't guarantee that you can come up with something useful, or that it's not a complete waste of time. Yes, "5/5/5 Fire/Perceive" doesn't seem all that useful, unless you want to know where every fire is in the adjacent 500 square miles.

But perhaps rather than redefine the base/intent system, some of the interpretations of the combinations need to be redefined. Why can't you "control/death" to raise the dead? Seems logical to me...

A bit of expansion of the strict definition of the Base systems could allow more things to become useful. For example, what if perceive/fire let you use a fire as a scrying glass? Or as a means of two-way communication? Then a high-powered perceive/fire could be a means of long distance communication, possibly between multiple locations.

Such a relaxation of the interpretation of the base/intent system would let us do a lot more without completely redefining the system.

But I don't think that's what Tom really meant with redefining the core concepts of the game.

I do agree that the continual 1/hour XP/Power regeneration is a bit much for the pace of the game. You can just not do anything at all, and become very powerful. And intentional delays become useful metagaming maneuvers. Wasn't the "certamen" concept supposed to take care of this? Each player involved should lay out the energy they have to work with at the beginning of the certamen.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #4: October 20, 2011, 07:26:12 PM »
I'm with Indirik on this, I thought certamen was supposed to resolve the real-time/game-time issue.  You continue to accrue stuff as normal, but you only have whatever you had at the start of the "action" sequence to do stuff.

I would also strongly disagree that the system only supports blasters as ^ban^ suggests.  It may make certain archetypes difficult (though I think that has more to do with the GM approvals than anything inherent in the system) and I have a whole plan laid out on how to do a mind-control character that should work just fine.
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Indirik

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #5: October 20, 2011, 07:35:54 PM »
I have a whole plan laid out on how to do a mind-control character that should work just fine.
Shouldn't be that hard. After all, there's a whole "control/mind" combo to work with. :P
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Tom

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #6: October 20, 2011, 10:04:48 PM »
Yes, "5/5/5 Fire/Perceive" doesn't seem all that useful, unless you want to know where every fire is in the adjacent 500 square miles.
Err... no? That would be a 1/5/5 spell. At an effect of 5, you would perceive everything that is possible to perceive. You would know when and how the fire started, who started it, with what, everything that is has burnt so far, everything it is currently burning and at what speed, you could basically ask any question about any fire within the area of effect and get it answered.

Quote
But perhaps rather than redefine the base/intent system, some of the interpretations of the combinations need to be redefined. Why can't you "control/death" to raise the dead? Seems logical to me...
yeah, me too.


Quote
Such a relaxation of the interpretation of the base/intent system would let us do a lot more without completely redefining the system.
It was meant as being a relaxed interpretation. What I don't want is people going around gaming the system. Killing someone always requires an Intent to Harm, you can't do it as a side-effect of, say, a Create spell. Likewise, you can't use Water to do some stuff with the blood of someone, because that's a mechanical view - a holistic/magical view would consider blood as a part of the body.

Those are cases where I stopped the far-fetched interpretation. That doesn't mean everything has to be perfectly literal.


Quote
I do agree that the continual 1/hour XP/Power regeneration is a bit much for the pace of the game. You can just not do anything at all, and become very powerful. And intentional delays become useful metagaming maneuvers. Wasn't the "certamen" concept supposed to take care of this? Each player involved should lay out the energy they have to work with at the beginning of the certamen.

This is what this thread should focus on. I kind of like automated-over-time things, because it means people don't have to play to get ahead. But it's a problem when it doesn't fit the pace of the game.




Anaris

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #7: October 20, 2011, 10:11:23 PM »
Timothy Collett

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Zakilevo

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #8: October 20, 2011, 10:13:27 PM »
Hmm.

How about we change things to be similar to BM? Like say casters need to meditate every 12 hours? Make energy recover in this way while make concentration gained over time. Instead of us gaining 1 xp per hour, maybe make people spend concentration to gain xp?

so to summarize,

energy - required for casting spells. magical energy which casters need to gain
concentration - needed for casting spells, earning xp (reading books, studying runes etc)

Valast

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #9: October 20, 2011, 11:58:13 PM »
I may sound childish here... and feel free to ban me from all your speekings n squeekings....

but if each story has a place in time... why can it not have a time stamp/power stamp?  Start of a thread shows everyones stats at that moment...

loren

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #10: October 21, 2011, 03:25:26 AM »
I personally support the idea just stopping adding any mana/concentration for however long a time after some commits an action...

Anarki_Hunter

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #11: October 21, 2011, 08:43:28 AM »
What if (idea based on turns!):

Concentration
were to regenerate only by 2 methods:-
  • A repeated burst low_regenerated value(depending on the casters stats) after a turn, 12 hours as mentioned by 'Zakilevo'
  • A burst of high_regenerated value after a forced resting(resting period could be defined as per a turn where a caster cannot cast spells_but could RP something during that duration_could be trigger check to cast spells)

Mana or Energy
could only be regenerated, only by the following
  • Via a ritual, which would then generate mana/energy after a turn (base on casters act and stats). This could be the starting definition for a spell caster, where a caster defines how he would generate mana/energy! (and as spell casters get more experience, a caster could have multiple ways to regenerate his mana/energy_ie..can unlock or do different ritual after attaining certain level of experience or requirement)


    Quote
    Ex1:-
    Ritual <call something valid> (like Ritual Meditate)
    The caster draw's a rune around the location he would mediate, burning incense sticks to call upon the spirits to rejuvenate his divine energy.

    Will exhaust all 'Concentrations' and regenerate mana/energy with respect to casters power

    Quote
    Ex2:-
    Ritual <call something valid> (like Ritual Sacrifice)
    The caster sacrifice's an animal to convert the life force of the being as it were just before death, and fill it as mana/energy into the caster

    Will exhaust all 'Concentrations' and regenerate mana/energy with respect to casters power.

    The ritual to generate mana/energy has to be specific or could be generic to casters, would depend on their main skills or series of skills the spell casters posses.

    But it has to be limited..

(sorry for the bad rp_it was meant to be an example and the multi_edits)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 09:01:41 AM by Anarki_Hunter »

Zakilevo

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #12: October 22, 2011, 03:19:01 AM »
For going into a battle, maybe we can divide between battle spells and general spells.

For battle spells to be used, maybe we need to press a button - stops both energy and concentration from regenerating. Once you press the button to regenerate, maybe make you go through some kind of cool down time (a day or two?)

Zakilevo

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #13: November 07, 2011, 10:33:39 PM »
I don't want to make things more complicated but I have a question to ask.

Let's say I use a fireball spell 4/3/1. As soon as the fire ball leaves my hand, the law of nature will take over. The fire ball won't be able to last over a second since there isn't enough oxygen focused around to sustain the ball. Shouldn't the duration be at least 2 instead of 1? 1 should be like a lighting bolt spell.

Tom

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Re: Concepts
« Reply #14: November 08, 2011, 12:31:09 AM »
I don't want to make things more complicated but I have a question to ask.

Let's say I use a fireball spell 4/3/1. As soon as the fire ball leaves my hand, the law of nature will take over. The fire ball won't be able to last over a second since there isn't enough oxygen focused around to sustain the ball. Shouldn't the duration be at least 2 instead of 1? 1 should be like a lighting bolt spell.

1 does not mean "a fraction of a second". It means "a short moment". That can be a couple seconds, so fireball is fine.