Author Topic: GMs and Tom are not on the same page  (Read 3230 times)

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GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Topic Start: October 21, 2011, 06:44:25 AM »
According to Tom's tooltips, Mind covers "spirit".

However, according to Tom's comments in the Concepts thread, Control/Death should raise the dead, despite having been rejected consistently by the GMs as a means to do so....

The interpretation of the bases and intents provided to us by the GMs (through the spell accept/reject feature) has left us with an extremely inflexible and nonsensical system of magic. If this game is to function properly it is necessary for the GMs and Tom to be on the same page on things such as this. When the GM interpretation makes an archetype such as Necromancer and Druid unplayable, only for Tom to point out how much sense spells they have rejected actually made, it means there is a communication problem that needs to be addressed.
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Tom

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #1: October 21, 2011, 10:57:00 AM »
I think the problem is that the system is very undefined and almost guarantees that different people have different interpretations.

Maybe all we need is to reverse our approach. Instead of discussing "does X/Y cover A?" we should ask "what covers A"? With anything that doesn't require the "missing base" Magic itself being covered by something.

Someone feel like being Admin of a kind of Intent/Base FAQ on the Wiki or something? It would rock not having to answer the same question many times.

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #2: October 21, 2011, 07:23:40 PM »
Perhaps a stickied post on this board might work?
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Zakilevo

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #3: October 21, 2011, 07:36:25 PM »
We need some solid definitions for each intent and base. And some of them should just be deleted. Maybe change death to nature?

Mind - emotion, spirit, unrefined magical energy?

Harm - intention to destroy? Only compatible with all except body?

Tom

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #4: October 21, 2011, 08:09:46 PM »
We need some solid definitions for each intent and base.

Uh, no. We need some flexibility. What we need is a better understanding of the words "Intent" and "Base".

Mind - emotion, spirit, unrefined magical energy?
Err... no? Magical energy can not be affected by magic of any kind. I will not stand for having it shoved into any Base. If I wanted a way to influence magic, I would have added a "Magic" Base.

Zakilevo

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #5: October 21, 2011, 11:20:38 PM »
wasn't one of those mind bullet or mana bullet made up of pure magic energy? gotta get rid of that then?

What kind of flexibility are we looking for here? if you really want flexibility for spells, I suggest we get rid of intent and let people decide what their spell is intent to do with spell descriptions.

PS. Spells are instant right? They do not need any casting and work instantly when you want them to?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 11:23:40 PM by Zakilevo »

Tom

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #6: October 22, 2011, 11:27:28 AM »
wasn't one of those mind bullet or mana bullet made up of pure magic energy? gotta get rid of that then?

What kind of flexibility are we looking for here? if you really want flexibility for spells, I suggest we get rid of intent and let people decide what their spell is intent to do with spell descriptions.

PS. Spells are instant right? They do not need any casting and work instantly when you want them to?

No, spells are not instant. It's somewhere on the page, but the exact time is not specified.

If spells were instant, whoever starts casting first would win - he'd simply throw everything at his enemy and wipe him out. Only by making spells non-instant does it become a fight.



Zakilevo

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #7: October 22, 2011, 06:39:32 PM »
Maybe we should add casting speed as well? Maybe high level casters should be able to cast lower level spells faster?

loren

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #8: October 22, 2011, 11:47:02 PM »
wasn't one of those mind bullet or mana bullet made up of pure magic energy? gotta get rid of that then?

Mana spear.  It's under body as I recall.  And probably.

loren

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #9: October 22, 2011, 11:48:27 PM »
According to Tom's tooltips, Mind covers "spirit".

However, according to Tom's comments in the Concepts thread, Control/Death should raise the dead, despite having been rejected consistently by the GMs as a means to do so....

The original spell as I recall was that a dead person was raised back with their mind intact.  The idea with the rejection was that'd be impossible with just Control/Death.  If instead you're talking about controlling corpses to act as an army that's something else.  If you're conjuring them up out of thin air that'd be Create/Death.

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #10: October 23, 2011, 06:25:37 AM »
The original spell as I recall was that a dead person was raised back with their mind intact.  The idea with the rejection was that'd be impossible with just Control/Death.  If instead you're talking about controlling corpses to act as an army that's something else.  If you're conjuring them up out of thin air that'd be Create/Death.

That's absurd. An animated corpse doesn't just appear from nowhere: that's what makes them terrible and horrifying things. The same is true of ghosts, ghouls, or whatever flavor of undead you wish to talk about. What makes undead -- and by extension, necromancers -- terrifying is the concept of a soul corrupted or entrapped, prevented from reaching the peace of death and not the mere ability to "summon a horde." It is what differentiates the necromancer archetype from the elementalist, druid, evoker or illusionist. The thing that makes them horrifying is that they were once alive, not that they are some demons summoned from the nether.

If you are to stand by that argument, I challenge you to explain the difference between a demon's summoning and an undead's creation. Are we to summon undead -- both body and spirit -- from some nether realm? Except, it's already been made clear that the Death base does not cover that.... How then are undead and necromancy meant to be functional archetypes? What functional difference is there between the necromancer you seem to be encouraging and a wizard summoning an army of elementals?

If the necromancer archetype is meant to be a playable thing, either the Death base must cover what has already been rejected or the Mind base must serve as a replacement for whatever bizarre reason. To require the use of both makes the archetype an interesting-but-unplayable idea.
Born in Day they knew the Light; Rulers, prophets, servants, and warriors.
Life in Night that they walk; Gods, heretics, thieves, and murderers.
The Stefanovics live.

Zakilevo

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #11: October 23, 2011, 07:41:06 AM »
Demons should be summoned since they are not of the mortal realm.

Undeads should be resurrected. Some bases just do not work with some intents. Create/Death shouldn't 'make' undead. Create/Death in my opinion, should do things like creating diseases or causes of death.

Mind base controls spirits and souls so to raise dead, shouldn't mind spells do the job? Unless Control/Death raises a dead creature without a soul - mindless.

loren

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #12: October 23, 2011, 07:41:51 PM »

That's absurd. An animated corpse doesn't just appear from nowhere: that's what makes them terrible and horrifying things.
[/quote]

Precisely, an already dead corpse reanimated is control/death.  If there are no dead bodies around you can try create/death, which has had some ideas that simply summoning would then require a control spell to actually use them.  Though personally I oppose such an interpretation.  Absurd doesn't mean impossible with magic.

If the necromancer archetype is meant to be a playable thing, either the Death base must cover what has already been rejected or the Mind base must serve as a replacement for whatever bizarre reason. To require the use of both makes the archetype an interesting-but-unplayable idea.

Pardon?  If you're trying to bring back the person that'd be mind, if you just want to make it look like the person that'd be control.  A necromancer inherently follows to rules.  One they control the undead, and two they can commune with the spirits of the dead in some fashion.  If you're arguing that the two facets should be covered by one base that's one thing.  However, I'm not the one handing down some judgement on it.  That was something that Tom had said.

Zakilevo

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #13: October 23, 2011, 08:37:24 PM »
Fire - Heat (Both increase and decrease?) , Fire, Light
Water - Fluid, Water
Air - Wind, Sharpness?
Earth - Earth, Hardness?
Death - Undead, ...
Mind - Spirit, Mind (emotions, thoughts ...)
Body - Well.. Body (Physical parts but Mind can influence the action of the body.. Some overlaps?)

Harm - Destruction
Create - Summon, Creation
Control - Control over beings/objects
Heal - Regeneration, Pain (when it is too rapid)
Perceive - Detection? Feel?
Protect - Protection from harmful things or beings
Change - Transformation, Metamorphism?
Move - Move faster or Slower

For bases, I am not exactly sure what each base can represent. Fire can represent heat, water fluid, but what about other ones? For base they are some what straight forward I think.

Tom

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Re: GMs and Tom are not on the same page
« Reply #14: October 24, 2011, 02:34:29 AM »
Uh, I'm not sure why you re-invent the wheel - there are already tooltips with "also" when you hover over the intents and bases in spell creation. ;)