Author Topic: On nobility and piracy  (Read 4077 times)

JPierreD

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On nobility and piracy
« Topic Start: November 08, 2011, 05:31:04 AM »
A medieval time in which they were more entwined than we usually hear:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Slavic_piracy
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De-Legro

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Re: On nobility and piracy
« Reply #1: November 08, 2011, 06:07:18 AM »
Well yes, when you think on it Vikings were pretty much pirates too, just ones that raided towns and monasteries rather then commercial trading.
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BardicNerd

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Re: On nobility and piracy
« Reply #2: November 08, 2011, 06:51:16 PM »
Yes.  Nobles were in fact involved in piracy in the middle ages, though I don't know how much time they actually spent on ships -- but in Ireland it wasn't uncommon for noblemen (or women -- Ireland was extremely equal opportunity for the middle ages [a good model for BM, actually]) to sponsor a pirate group.

Keep in mind, however, that medieval piracy and our modern conceptions of piracy are vastly different.  Pirates in the medieval era, even into the early renaissance, bear very little if any resemblance to our modern conceptions.

I'll see if I can dig out some helpful links later, though a lot of what I know I learned in a lecture on the subject, and so is not on the internet.

De-Legro

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Re: On nobility and piracy
« Reply #3: November 08, 2011, 10:28:10 PM »
Keep in mind, however, that medieval piracy and our modern conceptions of piracy are vastly different.  Pirates in the medieval era, even into the early renaissance, bear very little if any resemblance to our modern conceptions.


This is the real problem, people struggle to dissociation the act of piracy from their concept of "pirates" that generally reflects the golden age of piracy in the Caribbean. If people could RP being pirates without peg legs, eye patches and lots of yarrrrrrrs it would never have been a problem.

Elements of nobility was always involved in banditry, piracy is simply banditry on the water.
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Anaris

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Re: On nobility and piracy
« Reply #4: November 08, 2011, 10:40:20 PM »
This is the real problem, people struggle to dissociation the act of piracy from their concept of "pirates" that generally reflects the golden age of piracy in the Caribbean. If people could RP being pirates without peg legs, eye patches and lots of yarrrrrrrs it would never have been a problem.

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Timothy Collett

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Shizzle

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Re: On nobility and piracy
« Reply #5: November 09, 2011, 08:31:25 AM »
Well yes, when you think on it Vikings were pretty much pirates too, just ones that raided towns and monasteries rather then commercial trading.

Well, selling of their spoils also incites trade :) New studies claim that the Vikings had positive effects on Medieval Europe, rather than negative (the developement of said trade, but also of fortifications and technological advancement). Also the foundation of towns.

De-Legro

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Re: On nobility and piracy
« Reply #6: November 09, 2011, 09:20:10 AM »
Well, selling of their spoils also incites trade :) New studies claim that the Vikings had positive effects on Medieval Europe, rather than negative (the developement of said trade, but also of fortifications and technological advancement). Also the foundation of towns.

I was unaware that it was ever claimed that their total effect was negative. It was certainly negative to those suffering the attacks (although you can argue it drove them to improve defenses, improving a technology that is only of real value due to the attacks is hardly a massive positive) , but like all things the wealth had to go somewhere. It is much like war, the losers will generally see the war as negative, the conquerors are generally quite happy with it.

Had the vikings been completely separate from the greater body of Medieval Europe, then sure Europe may have been a net loser and some other group a net winner, but they were never to my knowledge isolated in such a way.
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Longmane

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Re: On nobility and piracy
« Reply #7: November 09, 2011, 03:09:21 PM »
Flicking through one of the new books I've just brought (heh more like ruddy tomes  ;D ) I found this snippet on our happy band of mischief makers lol

(Frances and Joseph, Gies – Life in a Medieval City.)

One party roamed far enough north to sack Troyes.  Sacking was something to which citizens of an early medieval city had to be resigned.  Not only pagan invaders, but Christian lords, and even bishops, did their share—Troyes was sacked by the bishop of Auxerre.  But the champion raiders, who appeared in the late ninth century, were the Vikings.

By the time they reached Troyes these red-bearded roughnecks from the far north had taken apart nearly every other town on the map—Paris, London, Utrecht, Rouen, Bordeaux, Seville, York, Nottingham, Orléans, Tours, Poitiers; the list is an atlas of ninth-century western Europe.

In Champagne the invaders were led by a local freebooter named Hasting, who was noted for his prodigious strength.  Reversing the custom by which Vikings sometimes settled in southern Europe, Hasting had traveled to Scandinavia and lived as a Northman, returning to lead his adopted countrymen on devastating forays into Normandy, Picardy, Champagne, and the Loire valley.

Troyes was plundered at least twice, perhaps three times. Here, as elsewhere, repeated aggression bred resistance.  Bishop Anségise played the role of King Alfred and Count Odo, rallying the local knights and peasants, joining forces with other nearby bishops and lords, and fighting heroically in the pitched battle in which the Vikings were routed.  The renegade Hasting, who had carved out a handsome fief for himself, bought peace by ceding Chartres to one of the coalition of his foes, the count of Vermandois, who thereby acquired the basis of a powerful dynasty.

Paradoxically, the Vikings sometimes contributed to the development of cities. Often their plunder came to more than they could carry home, and they sold the surplus.  A town strong enough to resist attack might thereby profit from the misfortune of its less prepared neighbors.  The Vikings even founded cities.  Where the looting was good, they built base camps to use as depots for trading.  One such was Dublin.  And they gave a helpful stimulus to York by making it their headquarters, though the original inhabitants may not have appreciated the favor.

This aspect of Viking activity notwithstanding, the ninth century was the nadir of city life.  Besides the Vikings, the.... (It goes on then to name the other various groups plaguing Europe around that time)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 03:29:28 PM by Longmane »
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