Author Topic: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!  (Read 24395 times)

De-Legro

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #30: November 25, 2011, 07:33:32 AM »
Not by nature at all. And I use "altruistic" loosely: not directly and immediately and primarily concerned with personal material gains. I think most politicians have, whether by nature or otherwise I couldn't say, a real and pressing interest in national welfare, even aside from some degree of welfare being (hypothetically) a condition for their employment.

That would create even more paralysis, as the instant that a government became unpopular, it could face massive consequences, thus the incentive to make any kind of bold policy maneuvers would be further removed. See California for details.

Staggered, long-term elections. 6-10 year terms, but staggered so that elections occur every year. Vastly reduces campaigning burdens, gives representatives years to formulate policy, political bases (even outside of their party), and relationships. But staggered elections mean that the electorate always has an opportunity to express their will and effect, at least marginally, the direction of national policy. The US Senate is actually a fair example of this, but habitual filibustering and coexistence with the House somewhat confounds the issue.

Such a body would constantly have a meaningful contingent actively beholden to public opinion (depending on term and staggering, between 1/10 and 1/3 of them would be campaigning or about to begin campaigning at any given time), yet every individual representative would have a term long enough to shield them from fickle public opinion, and secure enough to limit their need for special-interest support. Also, I'm generally in favor of a very large legislature, for similar reasons of limiting the influence of a few strong personalities, and for increasing the "cost" to special interests to lobby.

I've never worked out why we have staggered terms for the Upper house in Australia, but they never thought to implement it in the lower house, very annoying. I'm completely agree though, the effect of 3 year terms leads to largely short term orientated policies as the winning party is instantly concerned with ensuring they win the next election.
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fodder

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #31: November 25, 2011, 08:15:42 AM »
probably because the lower chamber is the primary chamber and you need the ability to completely boot out a party at one go, or at least in theory.
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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #32: November 25, 2011, 07:15:38 PM »
Also, I'm generally in favor of a very large legislature, for similar reasons of limiting the influence of a few strong personalities, and for increasing the "cost" to special interests to lobby.

In a system where campaign spending isn't regulated by law, sure. But in Canada, only people can give money to political parties (not corporations or unions), and they can only give so much per year (1000$ in Québec), and the parties then have spending limits during election campaigns. This was done to counter lobby groups who could basically own some politicians. So say you theoretically double the number of MPs, you would need to half what each candidate can spend during elections (seriously limiting their budget and inciting illegality), or you'd end up with the MPs totaling twice the spending limit. Not to mention you pay twice as much in salary and various advantages. And when you consider that the parties hold basically absolute authority over their MPs, I think you could shrink or quadruple the number of MPs and see no difference in the national assembly.

You also then get stuck with the fact that there is more posts than people seriously interested in getting elected there. Of course all the major parties have candidates everywhere, but some barely, and this is often managed by having random nobodies sent in regions they don't expect to win anyways. More ridings = more nobodies = more sheople. You'd also get more !@#$%^&s like the independant André Arthur, who spoke a total of three sentences (or was it three words?) in a whole parliamentary session, and who missed 95 of the 311 votes 'cause he was too busy with his job as a bus rider to go to parliament...

When I was young and idealist, I used to think that I'd rather a strong government than a weak one, so that at least he could push an agenda completely and get something done without endless compromises which ruined the policies' effectiveness. Now, having seen what political parties do when they have absolute power (or pretty darn near), I'd rather they lack the power to do anything at all unless they find endless compromises with the opposition.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #33: November 25, 2011, 07:37:14 PM »
You obviously don't have a country wracked by trillions of dollar in debt, Chenier.

fodder

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #34: November 25, 2011, 07:40:15 PM »
...which country is that? most countries have !@#$ loads of debt XD
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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #35: November 25, 2011, 07:43:58 PM »
You obviously don't have a country wracked by trillions of dollar in debt, Chenier.

Yea, well, a lot of the US' big spendings were thanks to the government just acting as he pleased. All those wars, notably... Spending is the result of a decision, though some decisions result in spending many times after they were taken. No decisions = no spending. Or less, at least, as there is no new spending.

And if you put it per GDP, it's still pretty bad, but not the worst in the world.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #36: November 25, 2011, 07:48:38 PM »
You do realize that the status quo would not cut spending at all, only increasing our debt problem until we are in a hole we cannot dig out of.

Chenier

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #37: November 25, 2011, 07:51:50 PM »
You do realize that the status quo would not cut spending at all, only increasing our debt problem until we are in a hole we cannot dig out of.

Well, had the government stopped acting in 2000, and done like Belgium, you likely wouldn't have trillions in debt and no hope to free yourselves of it. :P
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #38: November 25, 2011, 07:55:28 PM »
Yes, isn't hindsight just a wonderful gift that does nothing to help our current problems? What you're saying we should do is bury our heads in the sand and hope the problem goes away. I'd say more, but it would only be a personal attack so I won't.

Chenier

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #39: November 25, 2011, 08:11:21 PM »
Yes, isn't hindsight just a wonderful gift that does nothing to help our current problems? What you're saying we should do is bury our heads in the sand and hope the problem goes away. I'd say more, but it would only be a personal attack so I won't.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying "take a ton of decisions until you screw over your economy, and then paralyze the government 'till it's healed". That won't work. What I'm saying is that "if everything is, in general, going fine, it's probably better if the government gets paralyzed and doesn't do anything than it be granted the power to make things worse".

I'm all for a government that spends for the public interest, but when they start giving out goodies to the mining industries and to the shale gas industry, or to arbitrarily displace one industry from one region to another, that's where I draw my line. And lately, that's all I've been seeing.
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Shizzle

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #40: November 25, 2011, 08:29:30 PM »
Well, had the government stopped acting in 2000, and done like Belgium, you likely wouldn't have trillions in debt and no hope to free yourselves of it. :P

You've gotta be bull!@#$ting me. The paralyzed politics in Belgium are catastrophic. AA rating today, nearing 6% on state loans.

Chenier

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #41: November 25, 2011, 08:33:19 PM »
You've gotta be bull!@#$ting me. The paralyzed politics in Belgium are catastrophic. AA rating today, nearing 6% on state loans.

Bah.  8)
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Vellos

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #42: November 26, 2011, 12:23:38 AM »
You do realize that the status quo would not cut spending at all, only increasing our debt problem until we are in a hole we cannot dig out of.

False. The status quo IS shrinking the debt. See "supercommitee failure." $1.2 trillion in debt reduction. Sure, when you translate that into actual budgetary numbers it's only a 2% cut in operational outlays. But it's a step. Yes, it's sub-optimal, but to act like we have a "do-nothing" government is preposterous: the means of their doing is non-traditional and sub-optimal, but hardly stalemated.

Crisis creates the political will, or the market necessity, to resolve it. Thus far, US politicians have proven to have the political will to cut budgets. They are "on the edge" right now, as both Moody's and Fitch have noted recently. But, thus far, the US has not shown the same crippling inability to manage its own debt as, say, Greece. We also have less debt compared to GDP, which is important.

In a system where campaign spending isn't regulated by law, sure. But in Canada, only people can give money to political parties (not corporations or unions), and they can only give so much per year (1000$ in Québec), and the parties then have spending limits during election campaigns. This was done to counter lobby groups who could basically own some politicians. So say you theoretically double the number of MPs, you would need to half what each candidate can spend during elections (seriously limiting their budget and inciting illegality), or you'd end up with the MPs totaling twice the spending limit. Not to mention you pay twice as much in salary and various advantages. And when you consider that the parties hold basically absolute authority over their MPs, I think you could shrink or quadruple the number of MPs and see no difference in the national assembly.

Here I reveal myself. I think campaign spending regulations are foolish, and am firmly on the side of corporate personality. Yes, in a system like Canada's, it could create incentives for criminality to have a large legislature. But in the US, our legislature is actually very small compared to the size of our nation. We have 535 directly elected representatives in our legislature compared to 300 million people. That's 585,000 people per rep. Canada has 113k per rep, France 71k, UK 95k, Spain 75k, Italy 64k, Ireland 27k, and Germany 132k.

In sum, the US does not have a deficit of persons interested and probably competent for the office. And congressional salaries are not that big of a cost compared to the size of the government. What we do have is a body of legislators with enormous power and sway, but comparatively small, so more easily influenced. Going from 535 reps to, say, 3000 reps would have huge new costs and make policy-making a process far less dominated by personalities and radicals, but rather by party machines, who tend to be more moderate and compromise-oriented. This would have some serious downsides, but would also make it more possible for representatives to be connected to their local constituencies.

The US system is of course not properly comparable to France, Ireland, and Italy, as the US has large state legislatures. But comparisons with other federal structures, like Germany, Canada, and the UK still has the US with an exceptionally small legislature.
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vonGenf

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #43: November 26, 2011, 09:50:23 AM »
But in the US, our legislature is actually very small compared to the size of our nation. We have 535 directly elected representatives in our legislature compared to 300 million people. That's 585,000 people per rep. Canada has 113k per rep, France 71k, UK 95k, Spain 75k, Italy 64k, Ireland 27k, and Germany 132k.

You can't compare numbers like that. If Ireland had the same ratio as the US, it would only have ten MPs. That's just not enough to have a functioning legislature, that's a junta.
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Lefanis

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Re: Pepper Spray IS a vegetable!
« Reply #44: November 26, 2011, 11:42:16 AM »
But in the US, our legislature is actually very small compared to the size of our nation. We have 535 directly elected representatives in our legislature compared to 300 million people. That's 585,000 people per rep. Canada has 113k per rep, France 71k, UK 95k, Spain 75k, Italy 64k, Ireland 27k, and Germany 132k.



Lucky you. In India, counting *both* houses of parliament, we have one MP per 1509000 citizens.
 
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