Author Topic: 1st Son  (Read 36271 times)

Chenier

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #15: November 28, 2011, 09:35:10 PM »
I dunno, if I was Tom I'd consider making it impossible purely on the basis of the fact that pretty much everyone is guaranteed to try the second one of them is sighted somewhere. They could end up spending 90% of their time in someone's dungeon...

I'm more interested now in this 'Nightfall of the North'. Different family judging by the name, which makes me wonder if perhaps the other invader factions will get their own emissaries/prophets. To my knowledge, the monsters and undead didn't attempt to create religions, so they won't be priests I imagine. Interesting...

If they can't be arrested, that'll be pretty lame. Preaching wars are boring as hell, imo.
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Berelain

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #16: November 28, 2011, 09:52:15 PM »
We will see next turn if we could have some fun with them  ;D

Chenier

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #17: November 28, 2011, 10:00:34 PM »
We will see next turn if we could have some fun with them  ;D

Any idea on their conversion rates? God-like or newbie-like?

Imo, balancing NPC priests is next to impossible. They are far more likely to be either way too powerless or way too powerful. If they can't be arrested and they have too good an oratory skill, then no IG religion will be able to compete with them and they'll just takeover everything. On the other hand, if they can be arrested or if they don't convert fast enough, they won't really represent any kind of significant threat.
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LilWolf

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #18: November 28, 2011, 10:08:45 PM »
Well, one thing seems certain. Even if these characters do nothing, Beluaterra is going to shut itself down.
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Geronus

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #19: November 28, 2011, 10:21:13 PM »
Any idea on their conversion rates? God-like or newbie-like?

Imo, balancing NPC priests is next to impossible. They are far more likely to be either way too powerless or way too powerful. If they can't be arrested and they have too good an oratory skill, then no IG religion will be able to compete with them and they'll just takeover everything. On the other hand, if they can be arrested or if they don't convert fast enough, they won't really represent any kind of significant threat.

Without temples and lords? I don't think they will be that effective at the preaching game. Also, I doubt their purpose is to screw with us directly at present, so I would be surprised to see daimon worship inspired revolts anytime soon.

Chenier

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #20: November 28, 2011, 10:23:32 PM »
Unless, of course, a way to fight the blight is discovered and we free BT!

Obviously, that's extremely doubtful, though. Not enough nobles to populate an unblighted BT, and blighted BT is too small and lacks the potential it had in the past where tons of colonies could be created almost any day.

My wish is that it dies gloriously.

Without temples and lords? I don't think they will be that effective at the preaching game. Also, I doubt their purpose is to screw with us directly at present, so I would be surprised to see daimon worship inspired revolts anytime soon.

Lord bonus is what, +0.000000000000001% per day? It's really bad. As for temples, you don't actually get a penalty for not having a temple. You just get penalties if you have a temple and it's not big enough.
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Silverhawk

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #21: November 28, 2011, 10:26:36 PM »
How about all blight regions got a region lord with the daimon faith. They don't need to convert fast, they just slowly take over all the blighted regions and "bleed" their followers into the border regions. Even with their still weak preaching skill (equal to roughly a decend priest) they can just wait and hope for the best.
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Tan dSerrai

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #22: November 28, 2011, 10:30:27 PM »
Any idea on their conversion rates? God-like or newbie-like?

Imo, balancing NPC priests is next to impossible. They are far more likely to be either way too powerless or way too powerful. If they can't be arrested and they have too good an oratory skill, then no IG religion will be able to compete with them and they'll just takeover everything. On the other hand, if they can be arrested or if they don't convert fast enough, they won't really represent any kind of significant threat.

In addition I think we can trust Tom far enough to expect that basic balancing such as would be necessary for this is being thought of, can we? If I would be working hard to make the game enjoyable for the rest of us I think I'd prefer comments along the 'I am curious / excited about / can't wait to see how this will affect...' line instead of glum 'this can't work....' statements. Balancing something complex will likely not be /perfect/ right away but surely it would be far better than outright stupid. Give the man a chance, he is still working on a game for free after /how/ many years? Managing to keep it interesting for hundreds of players for /how/ many years? Lets try to keep him /somewhat/ motivated....pretty please?

Geronus

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #23: November 28, 2011, 10:55:00 PM »
Well, one thing seems certain. Even if these characters do nothing, Beluaterra is going to shut itself down.

Maybe, we'll see. One of my characters will certainly be exploiting this situation to that effect. The other will probably be arguing hard against any kind of cease fire. It should be interesting to see how it pans out.

De-Legro

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #24: November 28, 2011, 11:02:17 PM »
Daimon priest? I bet you they are all from Enwiel.
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Chenier

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #25: November 28, 2011, 11:13:45 PM »
How about all blight regions got a region lord with the daimon faith. They don't need to convert fast, they just slowly take over all the blighted regions and "bleed" their followers into the border regions. Even with their still weak preaching skill (equal to roughly a decend priest) they can just wait and hope for the best.

Unless they are given 100% follower count to begin with, no. If you have a region with 0 followers, you can build a lvl 3 temple and have the lord follow your faith and the region will never get followers. Priests are needed to kick start the process. If they are given 100% following, then perhaps, but I think population in these regions is too low for that. Unless netherworld regions suck up PC realm migrants perhaps.

In addition I think we can trust Tom far enough to expect that basic balancing such as would be necessary for this is being thought of, can we? If I would be working hard to make the game enjoyable for the rest of us I think I'd prefer comments along the 'I am curious / excited about / can't wait to see how this will affect...' line instead of glum 'this can't work....' statements. Balancing something complex will likely not be /perfect/ right away but surely it would be far better than outright stupid. Give the man a chance, he is still working on a game for free after /how/ many years? Managing to keep it interesting for hundreds of players for /how/ many years? Lets try to keep him /somewhat/ motivated....pretty please?

It's not that I distrust Tom. What I'm saying is that Daimon Worship popped up in the last two invasions, and failed miserably in both of them because it had no special powers and relied on players to actually develop and lead it. If given a fair battle ground with common player religions, it will fail again, as it will be way too vulnerable.

Considering that this time the religion comes first, and not much later as it did the last two times, I figure that the plan isn't to let it fail miserably while being unable to ever gather significant size.

However, any advantage that allows it to grow rapidly enough to compete with existing faiths will surely also allow it to utterly dominate the other faiths. Which will either discourage other religions from even bothering, or will incite more people to become priests in order to counter it. However, I really don't think forcing people to become priests would be a good idea, if that's what they wanted they'd be priests already. However, if we are to rely on priests for a significant portion of the coming invasion's struggles, then we must consider that we will be relying on a very tiny percentage of the player base. All those who can't or don't want to become priests, whatever the reason, would find themselves excluded.

I don't mean to say that anyone is stupid and that those in charge can't think of anything, I just want to warn that putting too much of a focus on religion for the invasion could be very risky as far as gameplay/enjoyability goes, as without any special advantages it'd be hard to prevent the NPC faith from being wiped off while on the other hand it wouldn't really need that many advantages to utterly dominate the other existing religions.

My intent wasn't to criticize in advance, but rather to provide things to consider to favor the development of the best invasion possible, as many aspects of the invasions are basically impossible to change once things are in motion. For a lot of various people complained about various things during the past invasions. Obviously, no invasion can please everyone, but a number of almost unanimous complaints were over things that could have been avoided easily.

Personally, I think this will be the end of BT. I just hope to go down in a blaze of memorable glory.

Maybe, we'll see. One of my characters will certainly be exploiting this situation to that effect. The other will probably be arguing hard against any kind of cease fire. It should be interesting to see how it pans out.

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Thunthorn

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #26: November 29, 2011, 12:29:07 AM »
We have the 3rd Son preaching in Bil Havil as well so its not just one priest moving around...
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Chenier

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #27: November 29, 2011, 01:36:48 AM »
We have the 3rd Son preaching in Bil Havil as well so its not just one priest moving around...

I'm assuming there must probably also be a second, and I'm betting he's in Sint.
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JPierreD

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #28: November 29, 2011, 01:41:42 AM »
Unless they are given 100% follower count to begin with, no. If you have a region with 0 followers, you can build a lvl 3 temple and have the lord follow your faith and the region will never get followers. Priests are needed to kick start the process. If they are given 100% following, then perhaps, but I think population in these regions is too low for that. Unless netherworld regions suck up PC realm migrants perhaps.

It's not that I distrust Tom. What I'm saying is that Daimon Worship popped up in the last two invasions, and failed miserably in both of them because it had no special powers and relied on players to actually develop and lead it. If given a fair battle ground with common player religions, it will fail again, as it will be way too vulnerable.

Considering that this time the religion comes first, and not much later as it did the last two times, I figure that the plan isn't to let it fail miserably while being unable to ever gather significant size.

However, any advantage that allows it to grow rapidly enough to compete with existing faiths will surely also allow it to utterly dominate the other faiths. Which will either discourage other religions from even bothering, or will incite more people to become priests in order to counter it. However, I really don't think forcing people to become priests would be a good idea, if that's what they wanted they'd be priests already. However, if we are to rely on priests for a significant portion of the coming invasion's struggles, then we must consider that we will be relying on a very tiny percentage of the player base. All those who can't or don't want to become priests, whatever the reason, would find themselves excluded.

I don't mean to say that anyone is stupid and that those in charge can't think of anything, I just want to warn that putting too much of a focus on religion for the invasion could be very risky as far as gameplay/enjoyability goes, as without any special advantages it'd be hard to prevent the NPC faith from being wiped off while on the other hand it wouldn't really need that many advantages to utterly dominate the other existing religions.

My intent wasn't to criticize in advance, but rather to provide things to consider to favor the development of the best invasion possible, as many aspects of the invasions are basically impossible to change once things are in motion. For a lot of various people complained about various things during the past invasions. Obviously, no invasion can please everyone, but a number of almost unanimous complaints were over things that could have been avoided easily.

Personally, I think this will be the end of BT. I just hope to go down in a blaze of memorable glory.

So your point is that there is /no way/ that the religion can bring out something good? It will either fail miserably or it will completely dominate everything? Don't you think you are being a little extremist and pessimistic?
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Chenier

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Re: 1st Son
« Reply #29: November 29, 2011, 01:50:49 AM »
So your point is that there is /no way/ that the religion can bring out something good? It will either fail miserably or it will completely dominate everything? Don't you think you are being a little extremist and pessimistic?

Well, sure, if you make the invasion a 100% focus on Daimon Worship, then I think there isn't a way for it to be really fun for most people, to be frank. But though it seems as religion might be put forward in a more important manner this time, I really don't think the plans were to make the invasion 100% about religion, with no invader except for priest invaders.

I'm not saying Daimon Worship doesn't have any potential for fun, either. I'm just saying there are drawbacks and risks associated with it, which are greater the more importance you give to it. These are mostly due to the fact that the only people with a real influence on follower count are priests, which are very few in number and which is a class that has absolutely no appeal to a vast quantity of players (if you consider how many people have never or rarely played a priest).
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