Author Topic: Crown's Total Income  (Read 17515 times)

Lorgan

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #30: December 06, 2011, 10:01:14 PM »
Where did that extra 1,624 gold come from?

Wait... WHAT?! Gimme back my monies you thief!!!

Indirik

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #31: December 06, 2011, 10:05:56 PM »
Hey, I told you I'd keep it safe, and I have. It's safe, right here in my pocket!
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Vellos

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #32: December 06, 2011, 10:25:40 PM »
Actually, no. Your "can" is based on an incorrect assumption - that you could ever have a government that is not stupid and corrupt.

The technical term is "time inconsistent." And it can be mitigated through automaticity and commitment mechanisms--- which basically creates a "functional" or "de facto" gold standard (see "Euro Zone Crisis").

Going on a Standard (whatever we, pretty much no one cares at this point, heck do it on a Bubble Standard so long as it is on a standard!) just curtails those banking families from printing all this worthless money.

Unfounded and largely anti-Semitic paranoias aside, it is true that a fiduciary rather than a fiat system developed AS A RESTRICTION ON BANKS. We perceive it now as a restriction on government, but it began AS A PROJECTION of state power over "bank note" currency.

Sounds to me like the gold standard has inherent problems, while our current system can work better, but tempts governments to do stupid things with it that cause other problems (which may or may not be worse than the problems inherent in a precious-metal standard).

A fiat money system is largely not understood. The modern post-Bretton Woods system is the first even semi-long term attempt at global fiat money. Niall Ferguson has some interesting research on the matter (and some interesting and occasionally semi-offensive opinions). Thus, we seem to have enjoyed some benefits from a fiat system, and it seems to work, but we should remember that we have literally thousands of years of market and institutional experience with fiduciary and commodity moneys, and less than 100 years with fiat. Furthermore, to my knowledge, only one fiat money system has ever lasted more than 100 years, and that was in Song China, and it's longevity was based on other Song policies that served to mitigate the disastrously bad monetary policies they implemented. And, even then, it ended in hyperinflation. Furthermore, in the 400 years or so in which Western societies have had institutions capable of running fiat money systems, quite a few have had successful short-term experiences with them, but we have a handfull of disasters (Wiemar Germany FTW!).

That said, a fiduciary system is hardly as simple as people like to think. Fiduciary monetary systems were not "simpler" or more egalitarian than fiat ones (indeed, fiat systems more easily expand credit down the sociological strata, making them possibly more egalitarian). We just imagine them that way because they were in the "good old days."

You mentioned the denarius, that's an excellent example of how governments debase their own money so they can pay of outstanding debts. Or the post world war one Germany, which tried to print its way out of the reparations it had to pay.

Fiat money is like crack with it's short term high. But you keep on wanting more and more of it, and it compels you to have/make more. Ireland in January was making euros out of thin air, even now we are hearing the ECB may start printing money... Just digging themselves into a deeper holes.

You just contradicted yourself.

Fiat money creates the desire and need for "more and more".... but the denarius... wasn't fiat money? (though, in a sense, the seigniorage is a fiat-ish return for the government as it ultimately derives from legal factors).

That is true, of course, but the morale of the story is that you can never control anything that happens to your metals. Since the metal production, melting and coinage has nothing whatsoever to do with actual economic activity, you get two independent variables where you only really need one.

Also, the value of money is not imposed from above through some abstract calculations. There is an actual offer and demand going on; money is worth what you will give up for it. I give 41 hours a week for a certain of money, that's what it's worth to me, not grams of gold. Gold could be a means of exchange, or many other things, but it only counts as a means of exchange, not as gold.

The classical problem of Indian hoarding is worth considering here. The "stable" gold standard of 1870-1914 is largely a function of "irrational" (I put in quotes because I'm using it in a purely technical, not pejorative sense) hoarding of precious metals by private Indian consumers during that period. To this day, India has shockingly large gold hoardings (especially for a country of that income level), and gold is one of its largest imports. Shift the cultural norms about gold hoarding a bit, and the value of any fiduciary or commodity money based on gold... has uncontrollable results.

The curse/blessing of fiduciary or commodity monies is their internationalism. Everybody can hurt everyone, and everyone can pretty freely trade with everyone. 1870-1914 (the "classical gold standard" period) was a time of global trade, investment, communication, and immigration completely unmatched until our present day (which humorously/terrifyingly similar rhetoric on many things like technology and global peace issues).

Tom mentioned debasing, and some of the techniques taken to prevent it. I'm not so sure about the Byzantium story. Because of currency was based on precious metals part of the whole advantage was they could increase the circulation of currency, without devaluing the currency. The value of currency wasn't based on some abstract value of the economy that produced it, but based solely on the price of the precious gold. Conversely this meant that the ruling bodies often tightly controlled the mines and industry for the appropriate precious metal, in order to have some control over the supply and thus maintain the value. Obviously if the value of the metal dropped or rose, that affected the currency, but the amount of coins in circulation should not be as important as the relative scarcity of the metal itself.

I believe the gold standard you refer to, the modern gold standard was a Gold Exchange Standard or a Gold Bullion Standard, where the gold standard of medieval times was a gold specie standard.

The deficit of gold coins in Medieval Europe is a well-documented fact. Unsure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you here. But the markets at Constantinople and Antioch (and to a lesser extent in Spain, Provence, and Italy) where "points of trade" fueling Europe's major trade deficit. Europe was a net exporter of precious metals, and a net importer of goods and services until the major shifts of the 13th and 14th centuries; and then after 1492, everything changed even more radically. This deficit of precious metals led to inflation of their value in Europe, where good mines for silver and gold were also comparatively few (though Medieval mining technology continued to progress throughout the period).

---

Sources:

1. Ally, Russell. “War and Gold–The Bank of England, the London Gold Market and
South Africa’s Gold, 1914-19.” Journal of Southern African Studies 17.2 (Jun.,
1991): 221-238.
2. Balderston, Theo. “War Finance and Inflation in Britain and Germany, 1914-1918.”
Economic History Review New Series 42.2 (May, 1989): 222-244.
3. Bordo, Michael D., Hugh Rockoff. “The Gold Standard as a ‘Good Housekeeping Seal
of Approval.’ “ The Journal of Economic History 56.2 (Jun., 1996): 389-428.
4. Ferguson, Niall. “Earning from History? Financial Markets and the Approach of
World Wars.” Brookings Papers on Economic Activity 2008 (Spring, 2008):
431-477.
5. Ferguson, Niall, The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World (New York:
   Penguin Press, 2008).
6. Flandreau, Marc, Jacques Le Cacheux, Frédéric Zumer, Rudi Dornbusch, Patrick
   Honohan. “Stability without a Pact? Lessons from the European Gold
   Standard, 1880-1914.” Economic Policy 13.26 (Apr., 1998): 115-162.
7. Gallarotti, Giulio M. “Hegemons of a Lesser God: The Bank of France and Monetary
Leadership under the Classical Gold Standard.” Review of International
Political Economy 12.4 (Oct., 2005): 624-646.
8. Helleiner, Eric. “Economic Nationalism as a Challenge to Economic Liberalism?
Lessons from the 19th Century.” International Studies Quarterly 46.3 (Sep., 2002): 307-329.
9. Knafo, Samuel. “The Gold Standard and the Origins of the Modern International
Monetary System.” Review of International Political Economy 13.1 (Feb.,
2006): 78-102.
10. Obstfeld, Maurice, Alan M. Taylor. “Sovereign Risk, Credibility and the Gold
Standard: 1870-1913 versus 1925-1931.” The Economic Journal 113.487
(Apr., 2003): 241-275.
11. Officer, Lawrence H. “The Remarkable Efficiency of the Dollar-Sterling Gold
Standard, 1890-1906.” The Journal of Economic History 49.1 (Mar., 1989): 1-
41.
12. Redish, Angela, “Anchors Weigh: The Transition from Commodity Money to Fiat
Money in Western Economies,” The Canadian Journal of Economics 26.4
(Nov., 1993): 787.


----

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Vellos

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #33: December 06, 2011, 10:26:16 PM »
And, yeah....

This bug is making rulers really, really rich. I received over 2,500 in tax income.
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Telrunya

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #34: December 06, 2011, 10:29:37 PM »
Allison should watch out then, Vellos has his fortune ready ;)

Lorgan

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #35: December 06, 2011, 10:35:24 PM »
Hey, I told you I'd keep it safe, and I have. It's safe, right here in my pocket!

I hate it when you're right...

Worst. Deal. Ever.

Tom

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #36: December 06, 2011, 11:06:40 PM »
In addition, the realm made 0 gold from other sources (fines, etc.), bringing the crown's total income to 2379 gold.

So, we had 0 income from other sources, which is probably right. But 755 + 0 does not equal 2,379! Where did that extra 1,624 gold come from? And I really did get it, too!

Actually, it turned out to be a text bug. I nulled it before printing out the message, so you will always have a 0 there, when in fact it isn't 0. My bad. You probably did have other income accumulated from before I fixed the bug. Upcoming taxes should be fine.

Tom

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #37: December 06, 2011, 11:07:14 PM »

Zakilevo

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #38: December 06, 2011, 11:14:29 PM »
Now if someone wants to argue with Vellos they need to get more sources. I never knew things from the Medieval ages were so well documented.

Vellos

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #39: December 06, 2011, 11:56:37 PM »
Now if someone wants to argue with Vellos they need to get more sources. I never knew things from the Medieval ages were so well documented.

None of that, except Ferguson's book, is about the Medieval period. It's all about the classical gold standard.

Sources about the Medieval period you'd need to find elsewhere.

Yeah; much of what I said about the Medieval period wasn't in those sources. But if it was about anything contemporary or about general monetary issues, it's there. Or else, if it isn't, my marks are going to SUCK come end of term.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #40: December 07, 2011, 01:31:25 AM »
That would suck. How long is it anyway? 5000?

JPierreD

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #41: December 07, 2011, 04:11:05 AM »
That would suck. How long is it anyway? 5000?

Over 9000, I hear.

Sorry, couldn't resist...
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Ramiel

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #42: December 07, 2011, 04:43:18 AM »
I take offence at you saying I am anti-semitic...

I am not a prejudiced person except againts those that are prejudiced. (exceptions being bankers, lawyers and politicians who I believe are all scum... especially politicians and bankers... no wait not lawyers.. I know a few and they are alright guys)
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Vellos

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #43: December 07, 2011, 05:20:30 AM »
That would suck. How long is it anyway? 5000?

Yep, 5000.

I take offence at you saying I am anti-semitic...

I am not a prejudiced person except againts those that are prejudiced. (exceptions being bankers, lawyers and politicians who I believe are all scum... especially politicians and bankers... no wait not lawyers.. I know a few and they are alright guys)

You said:
"Its because the banks are not public and are owned by powerful banking families that we have all this hassle."

Which, aside from being basically false, I assumed, perhaps wrongly, to be based on the same intellectual foundations that saw groups like the Rothschilds as some type of international bankers' conspiracy. And "banking families," in most populist circles at least in the US, is often a reference to Jews. Especially when combined with theories of global geopolitical gerrymandering leading to aggressive wars to enforce a specific financial objective (in your case you identified alternative monetary regimes). Perhaps I misconstrued you. If so, it will be the first time I have personally had a discussion with a person who was politically vocal about international conspiracies of banking families controlling nations who was not also some variation of racist or anti-Semite.

Then again, I am probably oversensitive right now, as the class for which I wrote that paper is a class in European history from 1914-1945.... so the question of racism is kind of on the forefront of my mind. If I have misconstrued your position, and you would like to provide evidence of an international conspiracy of international banking families (who are not Jews) manipulating governments into wars or corrupt policies, I would be glad to hear it. I had no desire to impute beliefs on you which you did not have, and if I have done so, I do apologize.

I do find it funny that you say you aren't prejudiced, then identify at least 2 prejudices.

And I guess you don't object to the "paranoid" ad hominem?

(sorry-- a side tangent in my research, which my advisor told me to drop in my paper, was about interlocking directorates and structures in WWI European finance, and a tangent from that led me to all sorts of exciting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories)
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Vellos

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Re: Crown's Total Income
« Reply #44: December 07, 2011, 05:21:23 AM »
Over 9000, I hear.

Sorry, couldn't resist...

I about died laughing at this.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner