BM culture

[Dante Silverfire]

I have no idea what anyone is talking about here. It's just a bunch of vague references to random stuff.

I have to say I'm kind of in agreement with this. I've been playing since 2006 (having changed accounts since then) and so while I'd consider myself one of the "oldies" now I think although there is a different mindset when you first join the game I don't think it necessarily creates rudeness.

Conflict in BM IC wise is good in opinion. In fact, I've had the most fun in this game either causing or being part of conflicts in which my character IC makes some incredible enemies and great friends alike. While a character may be rude you can still play a character that way without being rude to the players.

Perhaps I've just not witnessed much of this happening, but I think overall our playerbase makes BM one of the best games around.

[Jens Namtrah]

the only thing I'd like to add is that there is a perfectly good ignore button for those characters/players who are just too disagreeable to have any fun with, assuming it is player-driven rudeness and not just an over the top character (although it works for them, too).

[Ramiel]

interesting... subtle... Very well, Challenge Accepted:

I myself have seen  some oldies be 'dickish' both IC and OOC with baiting and fueling flames. Some cannot seem to seperate IC and OOC and some are just like 'that' I guess. I've seen some characters go round baiting the single character in the realm  who will generally talk right back and defend itself etc, heck seen one go around calling an entire realm's military a bunch of cowards and then take offence when he got a talking to right back. OOC I have seen a guy turn out to be one hell of a 'dick' just because he didnt like the way another player roleplayed his character.

I've also seen my fair share of newbies be 'dickish' both IC and OOC as well. And from this I gain this outcome:

I would say there is NO divide. Humans are Human. !@#$ happens. And everyone can be a dick when they want to!

Now my question here: Why do Americans always use the word dick instead of other non-genitalia 'cusses'? Seems a fixation or is that just the media?

[Indirik]

You may be discussing something specific I'm not aware of, but generally speaking I think this is largely due to the way the players in the game treat dueling.

We're having a fight on FEI, in Toupellon, at this very moment over dueling. Some people want dueling outlawed because it "hurts the realm" when nobles get injured, because they won't be able to do their regular regional maintenance duties.

Typical scenario: Character 1 acts like a dick, is challenged to a duel, and then makes stupid excuses ("you have no honor/my duty to the realm/blah blah blah") and the rest of the game simply allows it.

Yeah, that does happen. But then again, there's also no social castigation when some no-name young punk thinks he can challenge the king to a duel.

If you are challenged to a duel and you avoid it, you ought to be branded a coward and doors shut in your face. (then it becomes a matter of that chars political strength, but let's stay in a general sense). This way, dueling acts like the deterrent it was meant to be - don't want to be killed in a duel, best watch your language.

There is a bit of truth in this. But it's not the complete answer. In addition to the situation you have described, there are also plenty of situations where idiots make duel challenges for little or no reason. In those cases the challenge should be refused, and the challenger scorned.

[Tom]

Yeah, that does happen. But then again, there's also no social castigation when some no-name young punk thinks he can challenge the king to a duel.

Could we solve this with an official "champion" option? Allow people to name someone else to fight in their stead? If it's an official game option, the punk can't complain much, and most kings will hold a champion with a really good skill so the punks can get a beating.

[Indirik]

That would be great.

[Solari]

Could we solve this with an official "champion" option? Allow people to name someone else to fight in their stead? If it's an official game option, the punk can't complain much, and most kings will hold a champion with a really good skill so the punks can get a beating.

This would be especially useful in situations where characters are clearly outmatched.  Courtiers, Priests and the like.  It might even create a little side market for hired swords!

[Chenier]

We're having a fight on FEI, in Toupellon, at this very moment over dueling. Some people want dueling outlawed because it "hurts the realm" when nobles get injured, because they won't be able to do their regular regional maintenance duties.

Well, the judge *can* declare dueling illegal and set an automatic fine for it. That kinda helps the mindframe that looting is a luxury that needs the approval of higher up.

[JPierreD]

Something what tires me is that some players, usually old ones with a long time in the realm, think your character cannot oppose them. Several arguments are used: hierarchy (if so, then we'd never have rebellions), service to the realm (you serve interests which are not necessarily shared by everyone, and there is no right and wrong in that), and realm culture - as in 'we have been planning this all along' (can't the newer players have different ideas, as long as it makes sense IC?).

[Chenier]

Something what tires me is that some players, usually old ones with a long time in the realm, think your character cannot oppose them. Several arguments are used: hierarchy (if so, then we'd never have rebellions), service to the realm (you serve interests which are not necessarily shared by everyone, and there is no right and wrong in that), and realm culture - as in 'we have been planning this all along' (can't the newer players have different ideas, as long as it makes sense IC?).

What tires me is that some players, usually the new ones with little time in realm, think their character cannot oppose us. Several arguments are used: hierarchy (if so, then we'd never have rebellions), service to the realm (you serve interests which are not necessarily shared by everyone, and there is no right and wrong in that), and realm culture - as in 'we have been planning this all along' (can't the newer players have different ideas, as long as it makes sense IC?).



But seriously, I tend to do everything myself because I have a hard time getting others involved, lately. 'twas much easier in the times of early RoF and of the Blood Cult. Hell, even in Enweil, prior to the fourth invasion. Can't just seem to be able to find people willing to really be creative and invest themselves anymore. I won't hide that I also do less too, though, but my previous levels of activity were inhuman. I played as much BM as the nerdiest of nerds can play WoW.

[Solari]

Something what tires me is that some players, usually old ones with a long time in the realm, think your character cannot oppose them. Several arguments are used: hierarchy (if so, then we'd never have rebellions), service to the realm (you serve interests which are not necessarily shared by everyone, and there is no right and wrong in that), and realm culture - as in 'we have been planning this all along' (can't the newer players have different ideas, as long as it makes sense IC?).

This is an excellent point. 

JPD and I have talked about this at great length, and in my experience it seems to come down to trust.  When new players arrive—especially when they arrive in groups—and take similar positions IC, it raises the suspicions of established players.  Nobody should be in the business of telling friends that they can't play together in BM.  At the same time, newer players need to understand that many of the in-game relationships between characters have been built up over time... sometimes with considerable effort.  Newer groups of players can appear to "cheat" the system by functioning like a power bloc that's taken years to develop naturally.  Established (and well-intentioned) players aren't going to form ad hoc opposition blocs IC to offset this new reality because it would cheapen their argument against the very situation that's frustrating them.  So, mistrust blossoms. 

When these newer player blocs also start doing things bucking the IC hierarchies or proposing sweeping "reforms" that suggest they aren't as familiar with the game mechanics as they could be, there's nowhere for this adversarial relationship to go but down the toilet.  In my experience, most of these situations arise out of an attempt to graft experiences in one game or forum onto BM.  That upsets a lot of people, and can discourage some older players from investing the time in trying to educate newer players about the vagaries of BM in an attempt to assimilate them into the culture.

[Indirik]

Something what tires me is that some players, usually old ones with a long time in the realm, think your character cannot oppose them. Several arguments are used: hierarchy (if so, then we'd never have rebellions), service to the realm (you serve interests which are not necessarily shared by everyone, and there is no right and wrong in that), and realm culture - as in 'we have been planning this all along' (can't the newer players have different ideas, as long as it makes sense IC?).

Yeah, there are some players like that. But in some cases, though, they are correct. A noble who has been serving as general of the realm for 20+ IC years should not be challenged by an 18 year old newbie who just arrived in the realm 3 weeks ago, for anything short of a deadly insult to him or his family.

When considering duel challenges, you do need to think about the relative station of the nobles involved, as well as the magnitude of the insult. if the nobles involved are of equivalent station, then sure, a refusal to duel should bring on shame and scorn from the other nobles. But challenges across a vast disparity of station or even swordsmanship skill, especially over frivolous matters, should also garner some scorn and shame for the challenger as well. A multi-tournament-winning swordsman challenging a young courtier to a death duel over some minor comment regarding the color of a tunic shouldn't be celebrated as a champion of justice and nobility. (But keep your comments to yourself, or he might decide that you are his next victim opponent!)

[songqu88@gmail.com]

It's way too easy to refuse duels though. And really, there is pretty much NO consequence for refusing. Really. What's going to happen? Dude you pissed off starts getting a hissy fit and barking bad stuff about you? Ok...have fun doing that? There's bound to be a realm that will take you in no matter what (As evidenced by the fact that to date, no one, and I do mean NO ONE has managed to become banned in every single realm on a continent via legitimate means...or even illegitimate.)

[Chenier]

It's way too easy to refuse duels though. And really, there is pretty much NO consequence for refusing. Really. What's going to happen? Dude you pissed off starts getting a hissy fit and barking bad stuff about you? Ok...have fun doing that? There's bound to be a realm that will take you in no matter what (As evidenced by the fact that to date, no one, and I do mean NO ONE has managed to become banned in every single realm on a continent via legitimate means...or even illegitimate.)

Agreed, but it's also too easy to issue one.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Not so much, as long as your judge decides to actually, you know, do something about realm laws, where clearly there are no less than four different ways to handle duel challenges. Then again, that is really broad and blanket, so eh, no way to make everyone happy really. Sometimes no way to make anyone happy either.