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Torture Reports as Message Forwarding

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Summary:Torture Reports as Message ForwardingViolation:2.4: exploitation of bugsWorld:DwilightComplainer:Lyman StoneAbout:Haktoo
Full Complaint Text:
Summary:  
GM player requested torture of a character, and a forwarded report, for the express purpose of having a 100% reliable copy of the message for viewing, thereby skirting the long-standing lack of a message-forwarding option, a lack which is intentional precisely because 100% certainty ought not be available in such cases.

Details:
An adventurer sent a forged message to Haktoo. The real message was viewable by 42 nobles, including the Zuma Ambassador, Garret Artemesia. He testified to the Zuma concerning the true message. The Zuma withdrew from attacking Terran shortly thereafter, and requested that Terran send someone to talk to Haktoo personally.

My character did so. Upon arriving, he was informed:
"Letter from Haktoo   (3 hours, 58 minutes ago)
Terran human not need give weapons. Terran human must proof letter. Must give torture report from any human that got letter that include letter so we know true it not more lie!
Haktoo"

"Letter from Haktoo   (2 hours, 12 minutes ago)
Why human all say get one adventure? Many say get original letter. Many can be made give report. You not have time track down one human when many is with you. You come here so I give you 3 day more for report. If no report then we come you land. Barca human not get more time. We move again in hour in they land.
Haktoo"

The portion of the message which seems concerning is the reference to the "proof letter" and the "torture report."

It is demanded SO THAT the forgery can be INCONTROVERTIBLY proved. That relationship is clear from the letter. I privately sent an OOC complaint to the GM. The reply I received was:

"Out-of-Character from Haktoo   (1 hour, 45 minutes ago)
I'm sorry you feel that way. If that is what you think though, it might be an interesting case to take to the magistrates. I would be interested to see the debate on the situation as I did not see anything wrong with the demand.
 [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]"

The GM did not disagree concerning my assessment of what the demand was; did not argue that there might be some other RPed motive (and no hints of any other motive have been given so far as I am aware).

My complaint, and the reason for filing this complaint under 2.4, is that message forwarding has been repeatedly denied as a feature, because the general consensus has been that we should not be able to perfectly validate messages. Torture reports, normally, are not "arranged" issues: we don't organize tortures to prove message validity. We accept them as valid because we, as players, know they are, and because the coding to make them ambiguous seems like it would be quite difficult and complex.

But to demand a torture report for the explicit purpose of getting 100% proof (and it is ONLY 100% proof because of OOC understandings by players) is clearly an attempt to "get around" the game mechanics that prevent message forwarding. Such metagaming is, somewhat to my surprise, not prohibited in the social contract, but seems in violation of fair play, and like an obvious exploitation of a game mechanic in a way it was not intended to be used.

Furthermore, the argument could be made that it is no different than asking for a scout report. This is not true, for several reasons. First, military deployment has never been seen as "privileged information" about which players fundamentally should not be able to get perfect certainty; message forwarding has customarily been such. Second, scout reports do have ambiguity, as CS usually has variance in it, and units can consciously misrepresent their CS through game functions. Such options are not available for torture. In sum, because of their different status and because of their perfect precision, asking for torture reports for the purpose of essentially forwarding a message with 0% chance of fraud, rather than extracting otherwise unknown information, seems to me a clear abuse.

Vellos:
Needless to say, I will be recusing myself from this case.

Geronus:
Interesting. Also potentially pointless, since there is no guarantee that torture will reveal the message that is of interest. What would the Zuma do then? Further thoughts to be forthcoming.

Chenier:

--- Quote from: Vellos on December 09, 2011, 09:32:46 PM ---Needless to say, I will be recusing myself from this case.

--- End quote ---

On what grounds? That you are the one who brought it up, or that your character is directely involved?

I would suppose I would have to do the same here.

Indirik:

--- Quote ---The GM did not disagree concerning my assessment of what the demand was;
--- End quote ---
Nor did he agree. Rather, it seems to me that the GM simply declined to discuss the matter with you in an OOC fashion. Which, given the nature of your accusations to him, seems perfectly reasonable.


--- Quote from: Vellos on December 09, 2011, 09:38:57 PM ---But to demand a torture report for the explicit purpose of getting 100% proof (and it is ONLY 100% proof because of OOC understandings by players) is clearly an attempt to "get around" the game mechanics that prevent message forwarding.
--- End quote ---

Torture reports providing a guaranteed accurate depiction of exact message contents is completely intentional. It is also completely intentional that this is given in a manner that can be forwarded to other characters.

Think about it for a minute. Why are secret police reports not given as a scribe note? It is 100% intentional that they are not, exactly because the information they provide is supposed to not be 100% guaranteed and accurate. It is intentional that this information is given in a way that the one who gets the information cannot give it away to other characters in a manner that is beyond question.

Torture reports, on the other hand, are intentionally given in a manner that explicitly allows them to be forwarded to *anyone* in a completely accurate, and guaranteed to be accurate, manner through the mechanism of a scribe note. Had this not been the intention of a torture report, then the scribe note link wouldn't be given to the character. The player would just get a screen full of messages.

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