Author Topic: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding  (Read 28314 times)

Vellos

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #30: December 10, 2011, 06:29:16 AM »
What about those situations where a character demands a scout report to verify the presence of a noble in a region? i.e. after an assassination attempt or other infiltrator sabotage. Or a looting. We, as players, know that scout reports regarding the presence of a noble can't be faked. Is it therefore acceptable to demand a scout report to verify the presence, because we know it can't be faked? Or in those cases should we be forced to accept the player's word for it, since that can be faked?

And, after all, as far as our characters should be concerned, your character telling mine that Kepler was in Kepler City is just as accurate as a scribe report showing it. Why should I trust a scout report that you had your scribe write out by hand any more than I would trust you to dictate the exact same list of names to your scribe? It seems to me that by your reasoning in this case, the very act of demanding *anything* as a scribe note is indicative of metagaming, since the only point of demanding a scribe note is that we, as players, know OOC that they are guaranteed 100% accurate.

As I have said in other threads: I do think that your character should treat the scribe note as equivalent to me giving you a verbal confirmation. They're the same thing. Except one comes from a noble, and one from a peasant. I have operated under that rule for as long as I've been in BM. I only request scribe notes when:
1. The information is too complex to be easily summarized (if I want the full details of a military deployment, for example)
2. I don't want to tell someone what I actually want to know
3. Other issues of OOC convenience

It has, in fact, always been my understanding (especially given the basic unreliability of scout reports; I forget, do they perfectly report infil presences? advy and priest movement also seems to complicate the issue) that scribe notes were purely an OOC convenience for players. The idea that these are actually some type of formalized document (that this is ACTUALLY what our characters are looking at) seems quite novel to me, and a major alteration to existing game custom.

For myself, if somebody says, "General Gooba of Kepler is in Kepler City" my first response isn't to go "Scribe report plz?" Or, if it is, that isn't so that I can test the veracity of the fact of his presence, but so that I can get the full details the initial reporter left out. And because I as a player enjoy the psychological certainty of a scout report, and sometimes that bleeds through (though I actually rarely look at scout reports).


In theory, I don't like 100% reliable information in the game, period.  In practice, it's utterly necessary to keep people from just going OOC, as I saw happen far too often in games like Utopia, where third party software became standard because people need reliable information.


And that's exactly my point.

Scribe notes ARE necessary, they keep a modicum of sanity to a game and forestall people going OOC for information. PLAYERS need reliable information to feel comfortable in the game. But CHARACTERS do not need that same level of certainty. And when CHARACTERS operate with a certainty only achievable due to understandings they could never have, but players do have, it seems like clear metagaming to me.

Even if the verdict is not ultimately decided against the Zuma GM (and I understand fully that the lack of the case's falling under a specific sub-heading renders that practically inevitable) I do request that the verdict still take note of this issue somehow, and reflect what several Magistrates have said: that even if this type of behavior is not explicitly forbidden, it's still pretty !@#$ty, especially from a GM on an SMA island.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #31: December 10, 2011, 06:41:08 AM »
It has, in fact, always been my understanding (especially given the basic unreliability of scout reports; I forget, do they perfectly report infil presences?

They do these days.  They didn't used to.

Quote
advy and priest movement also seems to complicate the issue) that scribe notes were purely an OOC convenience for players. The idea that these are actually some type of formalized document (that this is ACTUALLY what our characters are looking at) seems quite novel to me, and a major alteration to existing game custom.

Scribe notes ARE necessary, they keep a modicum of sanity to a game and forestall people going OOC for information. PLAYERS need reliable information to feel comfortable in the game. But CHARACTERS do not need that same level of certainty. And when CHARACTERS operate with a certainty only achievable due to understandings they could never have, but players do have, it seems like clear metagaming to me.

I find it interesting that you and I take completely opposite approaches to dealing with the game world.  You work around the game to make things more realistic, and I adjust the reality of the game world to make it congruent with the mechanics (i.e. House Bedwyr distinguishes high and low noble Houses by whether they have access to some form of fast messengers, rule by bureaucrats and the Scribes Guild is absolute within their bailiwick, etc).  I wonder how many people go one way or the other on this.

Quote
Even if the verdict is not ultimately decided against the Zuma GM (and I understand fully that the lack of the case's falling under a specific sub-heading renders that practically inevitable) I do request that the verdict still take note of this issue somehow, and reflect what several Magistrates have said: that even if this type of behavior is not explicitly forbidden, it's still pretty !@#$ty, especially from a GM on an SMA island.

Only if we're willing to open a can of worms on scout reports, and I think that is beyond our scope, because that wouldn't be a clarification, that would be overturning years of actual game practice.  Requiring scout reports and battle reports for the veracity of statements has been the standard of every realm and every island I've ever played in or with.  I'm not, necessarily, disagreeing that there may be something less than ideal about this, but let's not get power-mad here.
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Chenier

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #32: December 10, 2011, 06:43:19 AM »
Even if the verdict is not ultimately decided against the Zuma GM (and I understand fully that the lack of the case's falling under a specific sub-heading renders that practically inevitable) I do request that the verdict still take note of this issue somehow, and reflect what several Magistrates have said: that even if this type of behavior is not explicitly forbidden, it's still pretty !@#$ty, especially from a GM on an SMA island.

The magistrates can vote to state that it did not break the game rules, while simultaneously the titans decide that it broke SMA rules. The social contract we enforce assures *fair* play, not *good play*. SMA, on the other hand, is there precisely to fight !@#$ty play.

We are currently two bodies passing judgements over different sets of rules. Because, as far as I know, SMA was never assigned to the Magistrates. That being said, is there a wiki page talking about the Courthouse? I can't find any, and sometimes I would really like to review our precise mandate.
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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #33: December 10, 2011, 06:49:16 AM »
That being said, is there a wiki page talking about the Courthouse? I can't find any, and sometimes I would really like to review our precise mandate.

...you mean like this one?
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Chenier

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #34: December 10, 2011, 06:52:46 AM »
...you mean like this one?

Yea, precisely. Why ain't that on the wiki?

(it really is too easy to sidetrack forum threads... :/ )
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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #35: December 10, 2011, 06:54:16 AM »
Yea, precisely. Why ain't that on the wiki?

(it really is too easy to sidetrack forum threads... :/ )

I don't know, Chénier, why isn't it on the wiki? The thread is stickied on the main Courthouse board. I honestly cannot think of a more public and visible place for it to be.

SMA, on the other hand, is there precisely to fight !@#$ty play.

SMA intends no such thing. SMA relates specifically and only to the roleplaying atmosphere of the island.
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Chenier

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #36: December 10, 2011, 06:59:40 AM »
I don't know, Chénier, why isn't it on the wiki? The thread is stickied on the main Courthouse board. I honestly cannot think of a more public and visible place for it to be.

Most people tend to have as a reflex that forums are for discussions, whereas official information can be found on the wiki. Seriously, how are people who, for the first time see "magistrates" on their BM page, will have as a reflex to come to the forum instead of the wiki? I would have expected it to have a page like the Titans do.

SMA intends no such thing. SMA relates specifically and only to the roleplaying atmosphere of the island.

Meta-gaming detracts from any roleplaying atmosphere. Meta-gaming is the opposite of roleplaying. Therefore, meta-gaming has no place in SMA.
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Zuma GM

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #37: December 10, 2011, 10:14:32 AM »
Have patience, remember BattleMaster is played by people all around the world in a variety of timezones so work/sleep/school/etc will mean that people can't respond to things immedietly. This is also true for GM people.
To respond to the initial complaint, which appears to have a fair amount if incorrect information in it. It is unfortunate it comes to this as it also means more information on the way the Zuma think is going to be explained rather than worked out because some people decide there must be OOC reasoning for things that happen that they don't like.

Full Complaint Text:
Summary: 
GM player requested torture of a character, and a forwarded report, for the express purpose of having a 100% reliable copy of the message for viewing, thereby skirting the long-standing lack of a message-forwarding option, a lack which is intentional precisely because 100% certainty ought not be available in such cases.
 
Details:
An adventurer sent a forged message to Haktoo. The real message was viewable by 42 nobles, including the Zuma Ambassador, Garret Artemesia. He testified to the Zuma concerning the true message. The Zuma withdrew from attacking Terran shortly thereafter, and requested that Terran send someone to talk to Haktoo personally.

The portion of the message which seems concerning is the reference to the "proof letter" and the "torture report."
 
It is demanded SO THAT the forgery can be INCONTROVERTIBLY proved. That relationship is clear from the letter. I privately sent an OOC complaint to the GM. The reply I received was:
 
My complaint, and the reason for filing this complaint under 2.4, is that message forwarding has been repeatedly denied as a feature, because the general consensus has been that we should not be able to perfectly validate messages. Torture reports, normally, are not "arranged" issues: we don't organize tortures to prove message validity. We accept them as valid because we, as players, know they are, and because the coding to make them ambiguous seems like it would be quite difficult and complex.
 
But to demand a torture report for the explicit purpose of getting 100% proof (and it is ONLY 100% proof because of OOC understandings by players) is clearly an attempt to "get around" the game mechanics that prevent message forwarding. Such metagaming is, somewhat to my surprise, not prohibited in the social contract, but seems in violation of fair play, and like an obvious exploitation of a game mechanic in a way it was not intended to be used.

Parts of original message removed as not required for the response.

First thing that needs to be made clear is that OOC I already know the letter was not real. However as the characters do not know this they are demanding more proof. The same characters that have used torture themselves in the past and know very well, to them at least, that torture successfully makes humans tell the truth. This is keeping the way the characters are played IG true to their characters and the knowledge they actually have and based on the way they understand humans. Also, due to the fact that there have been a number of human lies, the Daimons do not trust Garret on his word. Again, there seems to be presumption that because he is an ambassador he is seen by the Daimons the same way humans see their ambassadors so anything he tells me I should just accept. That would not then be keeping the characters in character. He serves a purpose.

So stating that I only asked for this to get 100% proof of the letter for OOC reasons is incorrect

It should also be noted that it was not requested that Terran send someone to talk personally. You were informed that the only way you could talk personally, which you asked, was if you came to us.

Understanding that OOC I am already fully aware of the truth and am making this request from a purely IC perspective, please continue any discussion with that in mind as the 'obvious exploitation' is apparently not that obvious.

Thanks.

Geronus

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #38: December 10, 2011, 10:35:17 AM »
So some meta-gaming is just more meta-gamerish than other meta-gaming. Maybe we should create a scale, 1-9, ranking the relative severity of meta-gaming, and Magistrates only handle cases ranked 4-7, while Titans handle 8-9. A little bit of unfair play by GMs, hey, that's just BM being Gygaxian, right?

Which is exactly why the term 'meta-gaming' is too broad to fit into our mandate neatly. We are and should be limited to those specific aspects of meta-gaming that violate the Fair Play clause of the Social Contract, e.g. exploiting bugs to obtain a material advantage in the game. Also, I would not quantify what the Zuma GM has done here as 'unfair', since it does not confer any particular advantage to him to act the way he is acting. If you believe otherwise, explain.

I get that we are titled Magistrates. But do we have to be so lawyerly? We admit that this is basically extremely poor form by the GM, you said it should be heaped with derision. And yet you're going to give it the rubber stamp of approval. Seriously? The Magistrates are a body for regulating a community. This is a case where the GM, according to you: "Do I approve of what the GM is doing here? No. I do not. I think it's pretty lame actually, mostly for the many reasons you've already spelled out. "

Do we have to be lawyerly? Yes. We are a body that enforces law, and are thus governed by those same laws; we are not above them. We cannot be above them without compromising our mission. Hence the lawyerly aspect of what we do. We are not vigilantes. Our role is not to police peoples' RP. That is NOT our mandate, and moreover it is an enormous can of worms to go that route. There is literally no end to the number of behaviors we could infract if we really want to start scrutinizing the purity of people's RP. That is beyond the scope of the the IRs and the Social Contract, and therefore it is not within our mandate.

And, by the way, deciding that something is not within one's jurisdiction is not the same thing as approving of it.

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #39: December 10, 2011, 11:01:57 AM »
I get that we are titled Magistrates. But do we have to be so lawyerly? We admit that this is basically extremely poor form by the GM, you said it should be heaped with derision. And yet you're going to give it the rubber stamp of approval. Seriously? The Magistrates are a body for regulating a community. This is a case where the GM, according to you: "Do I approve of what the GM is doing here? No. I do not. I think it's pretty lame actually, mostly for the many reasons you've already spelled out. "

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #40: December 10, 2011, 02:42:21 PM »
Yea, precisely. Why ain't that on the wiki?
You have a wiki account. Instead of complaining that it's not there, why don't you go put it there?
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Indirik

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #41: December 10, 2011, 02:48:21 PM »
For myself, if somebody says, "General Gooba of Kepler is in Kepler City" my first response isn't to go "Scribe report plz?" Or, if it is, that isn't so that I can test the veracity of the fact of his presence, but so that I can get the full details the initial reporter left out. And because I as a player enjoy the psychological certainty of a scout report, and sometimes that bleeds through (though I actually rarely look at scout reports).
So you admit that you sometimes ask for scribe notes for the 100% OOC certainty that it gives you, the player. But you're here prosecuting a magistrates case against another player claiming that's what he did?

Quote
Even if the verdict is not ultimately decided against the Zuma GM (and I understand fully that the lack of the case's falling under a specific sub-heading renders that practically inevitable) I do request that the verdict still take note of this issue somehow, and reflect what several Magistrates have said: that even if this type of behavior is not explicitly forbidden, it's still pretty !@#$ty, especially from a GM on an SMA island.
Absolutely not. That kind of thing is way outside the mandate of the Magistrates. They are here to rule on issues involving the Social Contract and Inalienable Rights only. They are not a Roleplay police, or some some board to be used to certify that a player is a nice guy. They are not here to certify that some player was being a dick.
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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #42: December 10, 2011, 04:30:41 PM »
The accuracy of the content of the scribe note is not the issue [...]
It is a "by the way" comment in case others reading this believe those police reports word for word (fair warning to them).

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #43: December 10, 2011, 04:35:13 PM »
Firstly, let's leave all the cussing and negative perception of the accused (not just from the complainant) out of the courtroom section of the forum.

Understanding that OOC I am already fully aware of the truth and am making this request from a purely IC perspective [...]
Under other circumstances you would probably need to state how exactly you are aware. In this case it is not needed for me as torture reports (as with anything IG) is naturally translated to make sense IG and its existence would make requests for it perfectly natural as well.

SMA - many things IG would not be SMA - the game mechanics itself. Magic owls, undead, monsters - even daimons  ;) - even the torture reports that provide exact words. No one could realistically produce that even under torture. But we have to work with it and make it fit.

Meta-gaming - simply unavoidable. Basic test, knowing when 'turn' changes and planning around it. Let's not say that it's fair because everyone knows about it because then everything would need to be revealed so that no one would have an advantaged but some things are intentionally kept secret for you to find out.

Exploitation of bugs - unless the torture report is NOT working as it is then there is no exploitation.

So you admit that you sometimes ask for scribe notes for the 100% OOC certainty that it gives you, the player. But you're here prosecuting a magistrates case against another player claiming that's what he did?
This seems pertinent.

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Re: Torture Reports as Message Forwarding
« Reply #44: December 10, 2011, 10:59:34 PM »
Has nobody seen the REAL problem with the request? Nobody?

What's wrong with the request IC?

...
...
The Zuma made the request, apparently because they believe the word of the judges scribe over the word of the judge.

Isn't that what the GM is saying, essentially?

I would object to that, IC, if I were Vellos.

And I'm very curious why the Zuma place more trust in non-noble humans, than on noble humans. Why the distinction?