Author Topic: What little things that people commonly do, do you consider non-SMA? And why?  (Read 20256 times)

Indirik

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So, I was just thinking today (probably brought on by the recent Zuma torture report Magistrates case, or the discussion over whether or not realms named after the character are SMA) that there are probably a lot of routine things we do that some players would consider non-SMA. And that other people have no problem with.

What I'm primarily looking at here are the smaller things. Everyday actions that our characters take. For example:
  • Visiting a local tavern or inn. Is that non-SMA because nobles would never visit a common tavern? Or are these considered to be the medieval equivalent of a high-class establishment catering to the nobility?
  • Is asking for a scribe note SMA? Is demanding a scribe note SMA? How about saying that since an official scout report wasn't provided via scribe notes, that there is no proof that someone was in a region? The medieval version of "Pics, or it didn't happen!"
  • In the Lurian lands (not sure if this is common elsewhere) lords are often referred to by the region name, rather than, or in addition to, their personal names. So you call him Duke Giask because he's lord of the city of Giask, instead of Duke Frank because he's lord of a city and his name is Frank Jones. Is this "more SMA" or merely a local cultural thing?
  • Is talking about "5,000 CS" of enemy troops non-SMA? Or is it OK because the game itself uses the term, and thus if the game itself uses it, it's acceptable?

But I'm not just talking about these specific things. I'm also interested in other things that you do, or that you have seen other people do, that you would consider non-SMA. Or even things that other people have said are non-SMA, but that you think are fine. And also, I want to know why you think they are OK or not OK. So don't just say "Asking for scribe notes is non-SMA". Tell us why you think that it is non-SMA.
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egamma

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You just have to have a justification.

For CS, I theorize that our scouts are members of a scouts' guild, and that as members of that guild, they have come up with a formula for estimating the strength of the enemy forces. So asking for CS is asking for your scout to use his guild training, and as nobles, we simply communicate among ourselves in that format, rather than coming up with our own.

As for names, I normally use title and family name--"Marquis Gellander" rather than "Marquis Gornak" or "Marquis Raviel." If the person I am corresponding with uses region name, I will switch to that. Since I often correspond with people of higher status than myself, if they use my first name, I typically take that as a sign of friendship--which is good for a trader like Gornak.

Vellos

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  • Visiting a local tavern or inn. Is that non-SMA because nobles would never visit a common tavern? Or are these considered to be the medieval equivalent of a high-class establishment catering to the nobility?
  • Is asking for a scribe note SMA? Is demanding a scribe note SMA? How about saying that since an official scout report wasn't provided via scribe notes, that there is no proof that someone was in a region? The medieval version of "Pics, or it didn't happen!"
  • In the Lurian lands (not sure if this is common elsewhere) lords are often referred to by the region name, rather than, or in addition to, their personal names. So you call him Duke Giask because he's lord of the city of Giask, instead of Duke Frank because he's lord of a city and his name is Frank Jones. Is this "more SMA" or merely a local cultural thing?
  • Is talking about "5,000 CS" of enemy troops non-SMA? Or is it OK because the game itself uses the term, and thus if the game itself uses it, it's acceptable?

1. Tavern- Depends on how your noble enters. If he enters, tosses out the peasants, requisitions the establishment, etc; or if he is insulted and disgusted to be there, fine. If he just hits up the tavern for drinks and tall tales... you're obviously playing a D&D character... which are aptly referred to as "Adventurers."

2. Asking for a scribe note is fine with SMA, IMHO. It is plausible that scribes could send details in some way if we posit that nobles have these vast legions of scribes (which we do). I have argued elsewhere that I think demanding a scribe note (as you aptly put it: "Pics or it didn't happen") is extremely non-SMA. It privileges peasant scribes over nobles, presumes a categorical difference between scout reports and letters of which characters would not be aware, and is an unnecessary imposition on RP by game mechanics. Game mechanics trump RP, but such things are an example of one player wanting things to go his/her way, so imposes an extremely broad approach to game mechanics on other peoples' legitimate RP.

3. This is very SMA appropriate. It's far, far more appropriate than referring to nobles by their first name alone. If people dispute it I'm almost 100% sure I can find documented cases of it being done in at least France, some German lands, and England.

4. I generally try to give counts in terms of men, but I'm okay with CS for several reasons: 1. like scribe notes themselves, CS is a very useful convenience. I don't expect people to conjure up different explanations of scribe notes or make SMA explanations for why we have instant letters. You can't get around it; CS seems very similar. 2. CS is a reasonable assumption. If I say, "There are 300 soldiers," that's not what a professional scout (like the ones we hire) would actually tell me. He'd say something like "There are 300 soldiers; they look heavily armed, organized, led by nobles XYZ; looks like mostly armed thusly.... etc" But those details can be conveniently summarized as CS, especially since the game doesn't give details distinguishing between pikes, spears, axes, swords, armor types, etc.

----

Now for my own list:
5. Plate armor- I'm okay with the occasional lord who is a hero or cavalier walking around in plate. But when every other noble seems to be wearing 15th century top-of-the-line plate armor, whether he is from a backwater scrub forest or a recently elevated adventurer... not very SMA.

6. Republics and democracies- I say this with qualifications. I am find with republics and democracies, as long as they are not REALLY republics or democracies. As long as they are still elitist, governed on a hierarchical basis, categorically reject humanism (in the sense of all people being basically the same), etc. I play in two republics. I would say that in Terran we do a good job being a republic of nobles; we give great authority to Senators, are very militaristic, have no real "advocates of the people," and are obsessively preoccupied with culture and civilization and the refinements of life for which we fight so hard. I would say in Riombara, it's like playing an 20th century political simulator: peasants have rights, everything belongs to the State, taxes are as centralized as possible, judicial codes are framed around implicitly inalienable rights.... it's getting better; there are an increasing number of players in Riombara with a real interest in Medieval governance. But it's still a long way from anything remotely appropriate in BM. Which isn't to say it's not fun; it is fun to play in Riombara, I'd recommend it to anyone... just saying it could be much better, and isn't right for BM.

7. Inappropriate names- They still happen. They're more subtle now, though. Frequent obvious references to other settings, every religion that ever referenced Tyr and Zisa, characters named after extremely well known fantasy characters (I'm fine with somebody picking a minor reference; the Vellos family name is stolen from a faction in the space sci-fi game EV Nova, but few people notice), realm names that sound like Starcraft factions (Terran).... names. On this, I actually liked Solaria and Kabrinskia, because I could see motivations that, even if there wasn't a huge historical precedent, I could understand how a noble could arrive at those decisions within the medieval context.

8. Atheism- less common now, but still happens. Just as bad is apathy. I'm guilty of it too; but I don't really know how to fix it in regards to religion. I feel like I'm talking about RL....
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

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I'd like to claim that nobles, especially council members, writing letters to adventurers, is non-SMA. If I understand correctly, the more "SMA" method would be to write out a cookie-cutter standard message that says something impersonal about the noble's general intentions, and then stamped or something, and passed out by messengers to post on stuff. But very rarely, possibly not at all, would someone whom others would see as a traveling commoner get a letter from a king or equivalent.

egamma

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I'm okay with Terran--Terra Firma, and various forms of Terra, have been around since Roman times.

On the other hand, these names aren't very SMA:
Assassins
Minas Ithil
Minas Thalion

Norrel

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  • Is asking for a scribe note SMA? Is demanding a scribe note SMA? How about saying that since an official scout report wasn't provided via scribe notes, that there is no proof that someone was in a region? The medieval version of "Pics, or it didn't happen!"
It's not great, but it's game mechanics, and is unavoidable. Besides, you can make an excuse; "The scout's guild is infallible and have developed ways to make their letters uncopyable, my scout can easily tell that this is a legit report". It's not great, but trying to avoid it is even less great. Getting offended if someone asks you for a scout report instead of your word is fine as well, since they are placing the word of a commoner- even if it's a very trustworthy commoner that belongs to the most well-established and trustworthy guild in the world- above yours. But asking in the first place isn't non-SMA.

I think more people should treat advies like dogcrap. While it's perfectly normal for the vast majority of nobles to be at least slightly civil with their servants, more nobles who outright steal and attack advies would make the advy game more fun and suspenseful, but I've yet to encounter any of that on either my advies or my nobles.
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Shizzle

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I'd like to claim that nobles, especially council members, writing letters to adventurers, is non-SMA. If I understand correctly, the more "SMA" method would be to write out a cookie-cutter standard message that says something impersonal about the noble's general intentions, and then stamped or something, and passed out by messengers to post on stuff. But very rarely, possibly not at all, would someone whom others would see as a traveling commoner get a letter from a king or equivalent.

I often send RP's instead of letters, signing them with Cedric Campbell, First Scribe. So I do agree on that.

Lorgan

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On BT I just had a scribe of mine walk into 2 advies' (separate) rooms in my city and order them to march into the blight. Without any further explanation. Then I waited to see how they'd react. One hasn't responded, the other has and will be doing as I said.

(When he asked for advice I wrote back though... kinda wish I hadn't done that afterwards but oh well, I still want to know if he can survive.. :P)

Indirik

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Keep in mind that SMA is only Dwilight. I'd rather not get into things that apply to other islands.
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Vaylon Kenadell

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Oh, really? Really? Okay.

Only courtiers should be literate. Noblemen in the Middle Ages were rarely literate -- in fact, Henry I of England was nicknamed "Beauclerc" because, unusually for an English king, he could read. Adventurers shouldn't be literate at all.

Where's the cannons? The English deployed cannons on the field as early as 1346 at the Battle of Crécy. I suppose we could say this is what special forces are.

Nearly 50% of the region names on Dwilight are non-SMA, and I hate them with a passion.


1. Tavern- Depends on how your noble enters. If he just hits up the tavern for drinks and tall tales... you're obviously playing a D&D character...

Or Sir John Falstaff.

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I think the whole "everyone can read" is more for convenience, since there'd be no way to play really if very few people could read. It would also be a real pain if we got more accurate with our depiction of human language and divided Dwilight into language groups. Seriously, name one continent in the real world where EVERYONE can understand the same language. Antarctica doesn't count, although in that case, I'd like to point out there are different countries with research stations there too. Sure, there are some places where there is a dominant language, but even so, there will still be people who speak only their native language.

In BM terms, maybe nobles are rich enough to afford tutors to teach them the "universal language". But then, where do those commoners learn it? They couldn't ALL be born to speakers of the "universal language". But whatever, it's a decision made so we can actually play the game.

You want some more things that are done for the sake of gameplay that I think aren't SMA? (And I'd like to add, most aren't even SBA, serious believable atmosphere)

1. You don't need to eat, drink, excrete wastes, or egest (Those of you who prefer the more common terms,  the latter two just mean you don't sweat, piss, or poop.)

2. Traveling to the different buildings in a region to buy paraphernalia, recruit troops, visit the temple, etc, takes no time. That means either one building serves all purposes, or you have a teleporter that conveniently only works in town.

3. If you play your proportions right, you can have every guy in your unit carry a banner, work in threes (I think it requires 3 people to carry a cart) to carry a cart, operate a siege engine, AND fight...with no penalty to their ability to fight on the open field. I can believe they keep the carts back when they actually fight, but they definitely bring the banners and siege engines to the battle. This means they probably stick the banners on their backs like samurai or something. Even better when it's cavalry leading a useless siege engine while carrying banners and riding (If anyone's ever ridden a horse, I'm sure you know how really hard it is to stay balanced on the animal, especially when you have a flag waving out your back, with one hand on the reins, leading a huge tower that you aren't going to use, and still have the ability to charge forward with your heavy spear carried presumably in your other hand.

4. There is at least one invincible peasant in every region. Have you ever seen a region with 0 population? No, because at any given moment, the power of true Invincibility is bestowed upon a random peasant who cannot die until the population rises above 1. Then in that case, he/she might die, unless he/she is selected again to be that one invincible peasant.

5. Non-heroes won't die (unless executed or death duel). I can write a whole lot about this...

6. Infiltrators are contractually bound to use non-lethal techniques. See, you can die in a death duel, but no matter how many times or how deeply you thrust your infiltrator blade into someone, that guy will never ever die. Batman would be proud of the non-lethal takedowns.

7. Adventurers need to eat and do other stuff only so long as they have money. Once you spend that last silver coin on food and other expenditures, somehow, magically almost, your adventurer becomes a freaking superhuman machine of endurance, requiring no nourishment or whatever else that silver coin was used for. Now why couldn't the adventurer display such camel-like resilience when he still had money? Perhaps desperation drove him to access great powers...Yeah, not buying it. The results I am familiar with when people run out of money to pay for food are generally frozen corpses outside in winter.

8. The only items nobles touch that adventurers also touch are unique items and magic scrolls. You wonder just why a noble is so averse to taking a fancy ring, or a set of ancient documents. I can understand the animal parts, and even the uncut gems. But what's wrong with some expensive toy? I mean, in its description it even says: "An expensive toy for the children of a noble or wealthy merchant." So why doesn't the noble take it for his kid or something? Hello? Game? You listening to logic? No? Ok...have a good day then.

9. You can only send a letter to one contact at a time. What, too much to ask for another name to be put on the recipient list? (I'm talking about the option to send a message to ONE contact in the message sending options.)

10. There is no difference between day and night with the exception of the purely superficial and aesthetic differences in the sidebar. Battles occur with everyone being as effective at night as on a nice bright sunny day. Look, game, there's a reason why people in the past used night attacks as a very useful tactic to get the jump on an enemy position. It's because humans don't see too well at night, and their lighting options back then were mainly in the form of fire torches which don't give very good lighting and don't have a very large radius. And on that note, apparently your archers have infravision because they can hit enemy soldiers just as well at night as in day. Either that, or each of your soldiers in every unit in every army is carrying a brightly burning torch. Which only makes me wonder how they juggle that with the banner and cart and siege engine (See number 3)

There's more, but those are just ten short little things that make me wonder.

vanKaya

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What little things that people commonly do do you consider non-SMA?

All the things you have just listed Artemesia are game mechanics that obviously do not perfectly reflect real life, but have apparent pragmatic reasons behind them...

You must have SO much free time on your hands..........
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*IF* you were paying attention, you'd notice that it was directly in response to Vaylon Kenadell's post about literacy, which I proclaimed, as you, vanKaya, just did, was a matter of convenience for playing the game, or, in your words, "have pragmatic reasons behind them". So I gave a lot more examples to illustrate the point that we shouldn't go by that.

However, it seems as though you took the completely opposite lesson. Very interesting. Perhaps I should brush up on my ability to communicate with people lol.

egamma

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*IF* you were paying attention, you'd notice that it was directly in response to Vaylon Kenadell's post about literacy, which I proclaimed, as you, vanKaya, just did, was a matter of convenience for playing the game, or, in your words, "have pragmatic reasons behind them". So I gave a lot more examples to illustrate the point that we shouldn't go by that.

However, it seems as though you took the completely opposite lesson. Very interesting. Perhaps I should brush up on my ability to communicate with people lol.

I think, perhaps, that VanKaya was suggesting you start a new thread.

vanKaya

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Indeed.

It just gets tiresome when people prattle on and on about the differences between BattleMaster, a browser based computer game, and real life.

It could literally go on forever.

In real life you need time to sleep. In real life we don't have turn changes. In real life you physically see the people you're interacting with. In real life you can recruit in places other than the capital. In real life you didn't have to command just one unit. In real life..... blah blah blah....

I just don't see what the point is....

And I know you were responding to other people who themselves were going off topic, but you literally springboarded from

"Only courtiers should be literate. Noblemen in the Middle Ages were rarely literate -- in fact, Henry I of England was nicknamed "Beauclerc" because, unusually for an English king, he could read. Adventurers shouldn't be literate at all."


to

"In battlemaster you don't !@#$"

Wut?
Fyodor, Terran.   Vitaly, Enweil.