Zuma/Daimons

[Anaris]

That's very odd.

You mean Zuma can't hop rivers, or daimons in general can't hop rivers? Because I'm almost 100% confident that it was observed a few times in Beluaterra during the last invasion.

Daimons cannot hop rivers.

There was once a special form of travel allowed for GMs. It was disabled during the fourth invasion, and even before then, it wasn't what most people thought.

Daimons (and any other GM-controlled troops) now travel exactly the same way as anyone else.

If you don't see them coming, then it is necessarily because you did not look in the right place

[Glaumring the Fox]

So they managed to dress as humans and walked through Vassar , Shoka and Inklen without the Terrans seeing a massive 8000cs horde wander through their neutral lands?

Did they dress as Pilgrims? Or were they dressed as 8000 SA priests as they made their way northward lol

Ok Ok I understand we are just dumb humans should figure it out.. Oh I know they were invisible! They all turned invisible and walked unseen through 3 regions of Terran or better yet From Aspar to Echuirfield to Vakreno heaps and then to Lowervia and then into the Barrowpeaks and then headed north dressed as peasants.

Maybe they used Daimon bushes and just tied entire trees to their bodies and and acted like a huge moving forest and no one in Terran or Asylon noticed a giant forest moving through their lands...

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Then if you can't do a better job, sure, go ahead and explain how you'd make it plausible and not totally out of nowhere for the Zuma and daimons to leave. You can't just say they never existed. They are there as part of Dwilight. Now deal with that, and move forward with how you think they should have worked.

A tough spot? Rather, the burden is on you to say how it should have been. I am content to stay with what already exists.

And as some reveal that is a bit anti-climactic, I once asked Tom what would happen if a human became ruler of the Zuma Coalition, and he told me he'd change it to a human realm. Not sure how that would even make a difference, since the one human there doesn't care to do that (No duh, I'd rather sit around and watch daimons fly around than be ruler of pretty much the first realm to get revenge-stomped once the daimons go bye-bye), but I guess there's no harm in telling you that now.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Then if you can't do a better job, sure, go ahead and explain how you'd make it plausible and not totally out of nowhere for the Zuma and daimons to leave. You can't just say they never existed. They are there as part of Dwilight. Now deal with that, and move forward with how you think they should have worked.

A tough spot? Rather, the burden is on you to say how it should have been. I am content to stay with what already exists.

And as some reveal that is a bit anti-climactic, I once asked Tom what would happen if a human became ruler of the Zuma Coalition, and he told me he'd change it to a human realm. Not sure how that would even make a difference, since the one human there doesn't care to do that (No duh, I'd rather sit around and watch daimons fly around than be ruler of pretty much the first realm to get revenge-stomped once the daimons go bye-bye), but I guess there's no harm in telling you that now.

We are not asking the Zumans to leave, we are asking for the Zumans to have clearly defined rules so that we all know what each side is at least capable of in the realm of fairness. I don't have to ask these questions of Astrum, or Luria Nova or Madina, I already know. Instead for the Daimons its always some ephemeral ever changing way that they can be and if we get close to finding out the whole reason changes, because there is probably no real defined rules about the Daimons. Come on we have been playing with the Zuma on Dwilight for a few years now, you think there would be one human  out of the bunch that saw how the Daimon get their food or manage to maintain huge armies that are not subject to any of the rules that human realms have to live by. Will the answer be revealed when Dwilight is a dead unpopulated map? Will the GM appear and say " Duh! you guys didn't know that the Zumans used sunlight to power their bodies? Like why didnt you just cover the sun lolz"

[songqu88@gmail.com]

You're still assuming that no human knows. And I'm not saying players, I mean actual characters, who are playing in human realms. I wouldn't be surprised if there were at least one human in a human realm who knows more or less the daimons' mechanics.

But even so, are you really going to go fight them? Even among humans, the general idea is that you see your ultimate secret plan succeed without anyone you don't want knowing anything about it. And at the very end, if you feel like it, you gloat. But only after your plan is completely seen through and done.

It's nothing unique to the daimons either. Let's not talk about mechanics for now, because I guarantee you if people were really intent on figuring that out they would have by now. Let's instead talk about the "Zuma plan".

Here's the deal Glaumring: An exchange. You tell me exactly what Asylon has ever planned and will plan, how their dealings with everyone else factors into the goals of the realm, and what they will do to ensure that occurs. Then I will ask the Zuma GM to reveal his side. Sound fair? Because that's really what you're trying to get at.

Yeah, yeah, mechanics you'll say. Does that REALLY make a difference? Do you think you're really meant to fight them? If so, then there'd be probably be more overt hostility from the daimons. The Zuma GM would probably have been running amok through your realms as we speak, possibly laughing maniacally like Overlord. But that has never happened. The reason could be that in the end, the mechanics are not so important.  If you really are supposed to know how they recruit, I'm sure such would be public information by now so we can all go prepare how to fight against daimons.

You know what I think is actually the problem? The faction is one that has mechanics that you don't know because you're not part of the Dev Team or NPC player. And it doesn't so much matter whether you can talk about it (Obviously Devs and current and former NPC players can't talk about it) so much as that you are bothered you don't know and you really want to know.

...You also don't know how the legendary hero criteria is determined. I'm pretty sure not many of you know how exactly the monster/undead mechanics work either. But that doesn't really bother you because you know that no one out there does have that knowledge except for the Dev Team who can't do anything about it anyway. You probably take issue with the fact not that the GM knows, but rather that he can use that to his advantage. And you don't like being at such a disadvantage.

It might be a mechanically enforced advantage, but is that really something so alien? Asylon versus Astrum. Guess who wins. And you have all the information you need (Or do you?) So you don't know everything about how the daimons work. Ok...And? Even if you knew about it (Like Astrum) would you win anyway (Like Astrum)?

[Lorgan]

Jeez, just go kill them already. I haven't heard of gigantic daimon armies on Dwilight.
The real frightening ones are on BT.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I think you are twisting what I mean to say into a "Im pissed because I can't beat the Zuma so I want the rules changed so I can beat them " type of thing. I am not on about that at all. I don't mind being the underdog, I have always been the underdog on Dwilight and tried to make almost impossible realms function, not because I want to win BM, but because I enjoy the character interactions and dynamics that evolve out of conflict and drama.

What I see lately with the Zuma is a stifling element and a bully like element that did not exist before. What I believed before was that we could learn from the Zuma, make treaties and evolve with them and have conflict and or RP with them. What I have now found out is that " We are all too dumb as humans to figure out the Zumans"  and the dynamic will constantly change so that the Zumans are always the top-dog and merely the GM's toys. The Zuma are not like us, they are not played like us, they do not have the same rules as us, they do not eat like us, they dont look like us, they do not travel like us... The Zuma do not exist, so remove them from the map and come up with a better more fleshed out version of them  that actually has interesting culture and weaknesses and and drive that is at least within reason and not some dumb Chinese puzzle-box. The feeling I get is like this kids play war, one kid shoots another kid and the kid says " Naw naw you didnt shoot me, cuz I am the Zuma, Zuma are so strong and they cant get hit by bullets, they dont have to play by your rules, Zuma have own rules, you dont like move somewhere safer"

[Geronus]

We are not asking the Zumans to leave, we are asking for the Zumans to have clearly defined rules so that we all know what each side is at least capable of in the realm of fairness. I don't have to ask these questions of Astrum, or Luria Nova or Madina, I already know. Instead for the Daimons its always some ephemeral ever changing way that they can be and if we get close to finding out the whole reason changes, because there is probably no real defined rules about the Daimons. Come on we have been playing with the Zuma on Dwilight for a few years now, you think there would be one human  out of the bunch that saw how the Daimon get their food or manage to maintain huge armies that are not subject to any of the rules that human realms have to live by. Will the answer be revealed when Dwilight is a dead unpopulated map? Will the GM appear and say " Duh! you guys didn't know that the Zumans used sunlight to power their bodies? Like why didnt you just cover the sun lolz"

While I understand your frustration, it's been made very clear many times that all NPC factions *do* have rules that they must operate under; they are just different from ours. And I will be very surprised if we are ever allowed to know exactly what those rules are. I think in a larger sense it is simply frustrating having to deal with an NPC faction that is overwhelmingly powerful and therefore cannot be held accountable. Sure, sure, they do everything for a reason. That doesn't necessarily mean that those reasons are in any way under MY control. In the grossest sense I can limit myself and make sure that I don't do anything to intentionally piss them off, but I can't control what other people do. I CAN, however, end up paying the price for what other people do, and that's quite galling, especially since I can't really do anything about it; the Zuma are simply too powerful to resist.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

There are different results for different approaches you know. That's also why there are some people who are staying silent because not only did they apparently know how to get stuff from the daimons, they also are cunning enough to keep their advantages to themselves. If anyone, blame your fellow players who don't want to tell you what they know, because they're not under obligations not to tell you. They just feel like not telling you.

Anyway, if you really ask around you will find players who have had truly worthwhile interactions and got a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if someone out there among you has pieced together the "secret of Dwilight" already, and either doesn't want to speak up, or has done so and was dismissed as insignificant and/or crazy.

I don't think Dwilight will end up like past Invasions where they run their course and end, and we are still none the wiser. I have a hunch that if and when the Zuma's real purpose gets revealed, we will all know very clearly what their purpose is. It might not be anytime soon, and it might not be when we would like, but that's really how things go.

For a real world analogy, how much do you think you know about your country's secrets?

And finally, you know, Glaumring, you should really understand by now that your character's reaction to the situation in Kosht that seemingly pushed you over the edge, while understandable in human terms, was really not doing you any favors in the minds of beings that view humans as more or less insects. Like, what would you do if an ant said you took away its anthill when you moved into your new house? Probably take out the bug spray and kill that ant and all its kin, then wipe out the anthill. You seem not to care about that at all, or if you do, you seem to be convinced that such is the wrong perspective.

And for what Geronus wrote: You also can't control what people do with other human realms. Do you think you can control any more what someone with a grudge against you sends to, say, SA? And do you think you'd survive any better if SA crusades against you? Everguard, Thulsoma, Averoth, and Caerwyn have proven that no, you do not stand a chance of surviving. Who knows how much those events were influenced via human manipulation as well.

Human manipulation is everywhere. And everywhere there will be some power to manipulate. That's the name of the game for those manipulators. After all, if there wasn't some power that can be used against one's enemies, say, a weak power, why even bother? Only do it if it would actually work.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Then its final, the entire realm of Asylon is going to join the Zuma, we are going to march into the Zuman lands enmasse and all switch to the Zuman lands. You better open up some estates because we as the players have the same rights that Ambassador Garrett does, I suggest everyone in every realm just up and head over to the Zuman lands and join, we can be done with the problem right there, afterwards we can all return to our kingdoms and play as normal but we'll be called Zumans instead of Humans. There problem solved and there would be no reason any longer for this issue of Zuman interference in the game play... I hope you like company Ambassador, the Zuman lands are going to get rather crowded.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

* Artemesia points you over to Tom's post in that estates thread about doing bad things to people who try what you just suggested, Glaumring.

^^I'm not just trolling about either.

If you are a lord near the Zuma, with the new estate system you can join their duchy! I am curious what would happen if someone died, but I wouldn't dare do it with my character.

I can tell you what would happen: I'd personally throw a lightning bolt. I explicitly said that the system is unfinished and to please not try and abuse it.

And to hammer the important point home: There isn't a thing the Zuma can do that the humans cannot also achieve. Yeah they have powerful units. You know what though? The pen's mightier than the sword, the faith is mightier than the inferno.

If and when someone like Allison decides she wants to !@#$ your realm up because she wants your land, do you think you'll stand any better chance? Caerwyn has proven that the answer is "No". She'll get what she wants because she has freaking power. And power is not only limited to CS. Come on, you all know this already. And I'm not trying to be patronizing. It's true, you're forgetting that the ONLY real advantage the daimons have over you is in CS right now.

Let me make some stuff clear since some of you aren't thinking outside the box.

The daimons do not have a religion. OMG, big huge revelation. And if you can't appreciate how significant this is, then too bad.

The daimons are limited to themselves in that one area. Again, you figure out just how significant this is. Hint: Alliances matter at times.

And very importantly, the daimons are inherently not as trusted as other humans. Come on people.

[Glaumring the Fox]

We want to join the Zuma too, you did it why can't we? Asylon is going to join the Zumans. Why can't we? So its special club that only one player can join, with a collection of players that are Dev's ingame who understand the mechanics of the Daimons etc , and the rest of us have to sit on the outside and just take it. I see you marching around in Kosht, I see vacant estates in Kosht. Why can't we just move in?

Oh I know why, because it would mess up the game for you! Oh so sad so then you could make a thread called " Asylon/!@#$%^&s" and sit here and bitch about how big !@#$%^&s the Asylonians are and how they don't play by the rules, and then I'll say to you " Garrett, you just dont understand Asylonians, we are different than other humans, we think differently blah blah blah".

We are going to join the Zumans, rules be damned, Asylonians are different than other human realms, we are different than the Zumans we are beyond Tom and the Dev's control. We would rather die or be banned than to be slaves an play a lopsided game.

Actually I could even make a roleplay around it, I could say that little did Glaumring know but when he was a child a Daimon went to Port Raviel and had sex with his mom and guess what Glaumring is half-Daimon and he just wants to go home and be with the Daimons and his people and it took all this time to figure out that he was wrong and that he is a Daimon too! Its awesome we could do so much and you guys could tell the Asylonians the plans and stuff and we could march around with you guys kicking everyones ass, we could wipe out Kabrinskia is like 2 turns and then up to Astrum and because of my royal blood and being half-Daimon the Zuma could make me king of the entire western continent of Dwilight and you could be my Ambassador and then the east continent would get what it has coming for it.  It would be awesome, heck I'd even change my family name to Glaumring of the Zuma or something, because who is to stop me? I am Zuma and I play by different rules than the rest of Dwilight... If you can't beat them.... JOIN THEM!

[Indirik]

And now the Zuma are taking land and breaking treaties

Did you ever ask the Zuma why they broke the treaty? Did you ever consider the possibility that you broke the treaty first?

It seems as if the Zuman rules changed lately, it seems as if whatever they were originally meant to be has been twisted

How can you possibly claim that? You don't know what they were originally meant to be, nor do you know what they are now meant to be. So how can you possibly claim that their purpose has been twisted?

[Indirik]

Really?

Really.

Did they region hop... like, 3 regions?

No.

[Glaumring the Fox]

We are going to enmasse join the Zuma.