Zuma/Daimons

[Vellos]

Daimons cannot hop rivers.

There was once a special form of travel allowed for GMs. It was disabled during the fourth invasion, and even before then, it wasn't what most people thought.

Daimons (and any other GM-controlled troops) now travel exactly the same way as anyone else.

If you don't see them coming, then it is necessarily because you did not look in the right place

That makes sense then; explains the difference.

But... but... I still don't understand what happened. Do they just not cause "An enemy is approaching" messages to happen? I guess all of Asylon's lords could be coordinatedly lying to Terran. It's possible. I don't find it highly likely.

Hm. Now I'm wondering if maybe FangFang traveled without a unit somewhere, then recruited from rogues. I wonder if that's possible. Doesn't seem like it would be, but either Zuma have some kind of "stealth mode" where they don't trigger any of the normal warnings, or else Glaumring is actually something of a master conspirator. I am skeptical of Glaumring's conspiratorial skills, and thus am now wondering about the possibility of inviso-daimons.

Jeez, just go kill them already. I haven't heard of gigantic daimon armies on Dwilight.
The real frightening ones are on BT.

How's 50,000 CS sound?

And to hammer the important point home: There isn't a thing the Zuma can do that the humans cannot also achieve. Yeah they have powerful units. You know what though? The pen's mightier than the sword, the faith is mightier than the inferno.

Oh yeah, we could RTO all of the Zuma lands. What a great idea. Problem: they'll still have units. Maybe you missed the part about really, really big units.

No, faith is not mightier than the inferno. Religions don't give combat bonuses, as far as I am aware. Sure, maybe if something like the Light showed up, that would do something. And be absolutely idiotic: talk about making a Beluaterra-lite. It'd be all the frustration of the Fourth Invasion with none of the epic scale. And you cannot seriously be suggesting that I can write Haktoo enough letters that she will die of paper inundation.

Oh and alliances matter? Really? What extraordinary knowledge you bring. I would have thought that the Zuma could be everywhere with all of their CS all at once! Thank you for illuminating these mysteries to me.

Ooo, or maybe we should all go and convert the Zuma to our religion; maybe that's why the whole lore about the Zuma ordering the founding of two religions is significant. And when the Zuma is in our religion, our religion will have True Ultimate Power! It'll be like controlling a genie or something. Which will be awesome: then, all the strength of a GM can be wielded by religions, and the huge amount of player-created content can be rendered worthless by whichever religion happens to convert the (most) daimons. That would be SO much fun. Because everybody knows that religion on Dwilight is really, really lacking; it's got no flavor at all. Dwilight is really the continent that needs a shot in the arm in the religious game.

Not. In such a hypothetical, if SA "got" the daimons, we could kiss goodbye to anything else on the continent basically. Not because SA was so compelling, but because the combined strength just couldn't be resisted. If a smaller religion, maybe Triunism or Elrism for example, "got" the daimons: no matter how much RP has been put into SA, maybe we couldn't destroy'em but, damn, we could do some damage. Not because we were able to create an interesting and convincing religion that really stirred people up: but because we gained the favor of the GM by investing the most time in figuring out the plot. Which is kind of a lame way to structure power in a supposedly team-based and collaborative game.

Or maybe, oo, even more fun, maybe we should worship the daimons! Oh, how original! We could all become like the Zuma tribespeople themselves; have a sort of barbarian culture where we all dance around sacrificing the occasional goat. Sounds like boatloads of fun.

These are what I think of with maybe 30 seconds of mental effort. Maybe there's some even deeper and lamer plan. I am skeptical of the ability of any one or two people to come up with a more interesting world than all of us combined, and confident of their ability to seriously retard the efforts of players in investing in that world. Hence why I don't think there should be any Zuma. When the Zuma were simply a quiet, benign presence, not interfering much, not really doing anything, they were tolerable. The neighboring realms had good reason to feel secure: the Zuma had no significant track record for aggression. Only idiots got in trouble with the Zuma, and they mostly deserved it. When the Zuma responded to Barca's taking Eregon: that was pretty normal Zuma behavior. Could have been solved. But when things escalated into ever more elaborate demands, the series of forgeries, the various dubiously legitimate ultimatums, FangFang's northward march... not normal Zuma behavior. Externally, at least. Maybe the internal process is identical. I'm not the GM, I don't know, maybe he/she really is processing everything identically as before. But externally, it does not seem at all consistent with previous behavior. The end result is that realms in the area now have only two functional foreign policies: become implicit vassals (as the Zuma have effectively demanded of Terran and seem to be pushing for in Barca), or else try to do some lame "Unite Humanity! Avoid Conflict!" approach where we try to build a grand coalition. Normal politics stop.

I will have to think for a bit about possible winding-down stories for the Zuma. As much as it sounds like a lame cop-out, it is hard to know a good such story without knowing what was actually going on before or, for example, what the RPed explanation is behind Vates' leaving. In hindsight I wish I'd pursued more information about the transition from Vates to Haktoo. But, I'm more than happy to try and come up with reasonable means by which the Zuma could eventually be removed from Dwilight. Just might take a bit. I've never claimed I would be a better GM, and thus there is no real burden on me to demonstrate any such claim.

[Telrunya]

There problem solved and there would be no reason any longer for this issue of Zuman interference in the game play

I see the Zuma as part of the game. They aren't interfering in gameplay, for me, they are simply part of the gameplay. You don't have full control over gameplay. Sometimes your neighbour does things that messes up your plans, or your long-term Ally betrays you for no apparent reasons or because there was a misunderstanding. But that's not an interference in gameplay, in my opinion, it's part of it.

Good luck with joining the Zuma. Let us know how that works out. I wonder how accepting the Zuma will be after Asylon seemingly is not on good terms with the Zuma at the moment. To be honest, any Realm would be suspicious if another Realm suddenly joins theirs.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Boom Vellos scores again.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Telryuna, none of us are comPlaining about what human realms could do to us. We are complaining about huge forces of gm controlled Ai that has done nothing till now and with a vague game plan ruining the game for us .

Oh and btw Asylon is hardly a zuma hated realm . If you look at the diplomacy map we are at peace, the only realm at peace with them and we get treated worse than everyone else because garrett doesnt like me for some reason Ig an oog .

[dustole]

Haven't Terran, Barca, D'hara and Asylon been feeding the Daimons?   If they need food to build their armies then it is likely you that is responsible for them having such a large force.  You should probably stop feeding them. 

[Vellos]

I see the Zuma as part of the game. They aren't interfering in gameplay, for me, they are simply part of the gameplay. You don't have full control over gameplay. Sometimes your neighbour does things that messes up your plans, or your long-term Ally betrays you for no apparent reasons or because there was a misunderstanding. But that's not an interference in gameplay, in my opinion, it's part of it.

I think you think that mostly because you are in Iashalur. Even if FangFang does attack you, he's just 9k CS far from home. You'll be okay. When he goes home, you can get back to expanding or doing whatever activities you had before. Maybe Iashalur was boring before the Zuma and needed spicing up; I dunno. Terran had quite a few conflicts brewing that we have now put on hold because we can't send an army to, say, Candials or Tower Fatmilak to involve ourselves in foreign politics. Not because we couldn't manage such an operation independently, we could, but because somebody might forge a message and send it to Haktoo while our army is away. The Zuma can be in our capital within 24 hours, maybe less with luck in the right seasons, if they want.

[Glaumring the Fox]

lol then they just steamroll us anyways...

[Vellos]

Haven't Terran, Barca, D'hara and Asylon been feeding the Daimons?   If they need food to build their armies then it is likely you that is responsible for them having such a large force.  You should probably stop feeding them.

Asylon had a regular trade; no other realm has engaged in any regular or meaningful commerce with the Zuma, unless Barca has been extorted recently, which is possible. A few Terran or D'Haran lords may have dropped off the occasional shipment, but not enough to have a meaningful impact for keeping a whole realm fed.

And, as Glaumring said: stop feeding them and they can just take it, and more.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I think you think that mostly because you are in Iashalur. Even if FangFang does attack you, he's just 9k CS far from home. You'll be okay. When he goes home, you can get back to expanding or doing whatever activities you had before. Maybe Iashalur was boring before the Zuma and needed spicing up; I dunno. Terran had quite a few conflicts brewing that we have now put on hold because we can't send an army to, say, Candials or Tower Fatmilak to involve ourselves in foreign politics. Not because we couldn't manage such an operation independently, we could, but because somebody might forge a message and send it to Haktoo while our army is away. The Zuma can be in our capital within 24 hours, maybe less with luck in the right seasons, if they want.

yeah or 3000cs of monsters will show up on our southern border and 3000cs in Vakreno and then 3000 in Itaufield, plus Itau goes rogue and then you scout Elets, Mech Alb and Barrowspeak and see 1400cs of monsters in each region, so the army thats in Kosht dealing with the populcae there gets wiped out and then marches back to the capital and the populace in Kosht decides to switch sides and go Zuma , then you ask the Zuma , " hey we are in Kosht everyday trying our best to get that region under control and the peasants there are a bit misguided and went over to your side so could you please send us our land back out of mutual respect for our treaties and the peace we enjoy..." and you get a massive demon clawed middle finger in your face... Makes one a bit indignant... Especially since as long as I have played Dwilight I have never ever seen Zuma inhabit any other regions beyond its deadzone.

So basically, just join them. If there is going to be players using the Zuma as a weapon to lash out at the human realms and there is nothing we can do about it, we will just join the Zuma and use them as a weapon against everyone else AND finally get to know the oh so secret hidden plans of why the Zuma have turned into huge dinks.

[Telrunya]

Telryuna, none of us are comPlaining about what human realms could do to us. We are complaining about huge forces of gm controlled Ai that has done nothing till now and with a vague game plan ruining the game for us . 

Whether it's Human Realms or the Zuma, they can mess up your plans. That's part of the game, not ruining it, in my opinion. There's little difference in my eyes. What if Astrum or the SA Realms with their mighty huge forces under vague reasons had decided to crush Asylon? You're at Peace with them too. Would that have ruined the game? Not in my opinion, it's all part of the game.

Haven't Terran, Barca, D'hara and Asylon been feeding the Daimons?

Yes. Asylon has been selling. A few D'Harans made trips as well sometimes, and I don't know the numbers involved. My character sold around 1000 Bushels himself as well.

I think you think that mostly because you are in Iashalur. Even if FangFang does attack you, he's just 9k CS far from home. You'll be okay. When he goes home, you can get back to expanding or doing whatever activities you had before. Maybe Iashalur was boring before the Zuma and needed spicing up; I dunno. Terran had quite a few conflicts brewing that we have now put on hold because we can't send an army to, say, Candials or Tower Fatmilak to involve ourselves in foreign politics. Not because we couldn't manage such an operation independently, we could, but because somebody might forge a message and send it to Haktoo while our army is away. The Zuma can be in our capital within 24 hours, maybe less with luck in the right seasons, if they want.

I'm in Iashalur right now yes, but I've played most of my time on Dwilight in D'Hara. I'm confident that if I was in Terran, Barca, Asylon or back in D'Hara right now, I would be saying exactly the same thing. D'Hara has in the past for the same reasons also never directly involved ourselves in Wars because we were damn afraid the Lurians would be attacking us the moment we did so.

we will just join the Zuma and use them as a weapon against everyone else AND finally get to know the oh so secret hidden plans of why the Zuma have turned into huge dinks.

Assuming they accept you.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Tel , we dont care about the human realms crushing us, we KNOW its part of the game, thats why we play BM, we know that the human realms play by the same rules as US, we know they are made up of disparate factions of humans LIKE US, who have their own agenda. Just because a realm like Astrum is big and powerful doesn't mean it can't be broken, or its army inept or its food sources cut off. The Zuma on the other hand do not even play by the same rules, their army gets crushed...Oh just call up some moe, oh we don't need food we are Zuma, oh all Daimons are loyal to Daimons, there isn't one Daimon who would go independent from then Zuma, and because there is only like 2 or 3 people controlling these vast armies and the GM's can probably just jump around to eachothers accounts the army is never without fail and always on time.

Assuming they accept us? We go over and switch sides like any other human realm and play the game as Zuma instead, we abandon Asylon and then just march up there as one vast horde retake the dead lands and there its done , we have our lands back as Asylon but now we are Zuman, then we start attacking anyone around us who doesn't like it. It would be hard for the Zuman to ban 28 nobles, 28 nobles who can't wait to help out and be Zuman. Plus once Terran sees how awesome it is to be Zuman they also join so there we got like near 50 nobles in Zuman lands, and then Barca says " Well if we stay alone we get wiped out by Zuma!" so they join, now the population of Zuman nobles is near 60 or 70 , we could even fit D'hara in there and that would be near a hundred nobles and if Aurvandiil wanted to join that put us up to 140, why stop there we could probably get the entire west coast to join...

And then once thats done, the Gm's could either decide to change things and acknowledge certain faults or end up banning half of Dwilight, ruining the server and shutting down Dwilight.

I want to play here, we want to play here, but it has to have some sort of clear rules, especially when we are dealing with NPC super power realms like the Zuma who are now cavorting and being manipulated by many realms in Dwilight against other realms.

[Telrunya]

Well, in my opinion, getting crushed by the Zuma or getting crushes by Astrum is the same thing. The Zuma play by Rules, just different ones. Zuma, Humans, Undead, Monsters, they are all part of the game. If you cannot accept the Zuma and oppose any action from them solely on the fact they are not a standard Human realm but a Daimon faction, then there really isn't much more to discuss. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that then. We simply think different on the matter of not-player Factions.

Though, the Zuma have been buying and demanding Food from other Realms, so it might very well play some importance to them.

Assuming they accept us? We go over and switch sides like any other human realm and play the game as Zuma instead, we abandon Asylon and then just march up there as one vast horde retake the dead lands and there its done , we have our lands back as Asylon but now we are Zuman, then we start attacking anyone around us who doesn't like it. It would be hard for the Zuman to ban 28 nobles, 28 nobles who can't wait to help out and be Zuman.

They could easily still ban you, no matter the numbers you bring, assuming there are no special restrictions surrounding joining the Zuma. Joining the Zuma doesn't suddenly mean they are friendly to you, give you the ability to recruit Daimons, let you do whatever you want or anything like that, so your scenario won't really hold up. The Humans that were part of the Daimons in the Fourth Invasion had pretty much no way to recruit an unit. Lastly, having everyone banished from the Zuma in no way shuts down Dwilight.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Its merely a protest action. I don't wish to join the Zuma to exploit that action. It is merely a way of showing a different point of view regarding the Zuma and their interactions with the game world. It is merely a scenerio that should be given thought.

I will also state this the above poll , I voted " I don't know" I do not love nor hate the Zuma, I always liked them being ingame and I enjoyed the benign relationship. I enjoyed working with the Zuma when I knew that our treaties and trade and peace was valid. I now find that they are worthless and that if we drop from peace to neutral or below our realm is dead. They would probably not recognize an 'alliance' so there is no point going there. What I have discovered is that there is no way to properly deal with them and nothing they say means anything, they are merely the Gm's toys and the players have made a mistake by thinking that they can play in Dwilight with them.

Meanwhile on BEL...

http://battlemaster.org/ShowScribeNote.php?ID=510212&Hash=c81c783f714ab3fb

[egamma]

Tom has stated previously (at the time the new estate code was put in) that if someone exploited the new estate loophole and switched the duchy of their region to the Zuma, that they would be dealt with very harshly--I'm pretty sure he said bolted.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Did you read what I said above at all?