Zuma/Daimons

[egamma]

You can't simply join, as in "travel to the capital and pledge yourself to the realm, leaving friends behind". That option is not available for the Zuma capital. The only other option is switching duchies which as Artemesia and myself have both pointed out, is considered by Tom to be exploiting a bug.

If you wish to surrender to the Zuma, just send them a letter saying so. Have you tried that?

The problem, Vellos/Glaumring, is that all you see are problems; you need to be looking for possibilities. Perhaps you need to pause your DWI characters for a while, and come back when your attitude improves.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Pausing would not help! We need to be here to learn more about the Zuma!

[egamma]

Ah, I didn't know that 'protesting' was you way of investigating the Zuma. But like I've said several times, that won't work.

Why don't you appoint an Ambassador to the Zuma, and send him down with no troops but a dozen scouts, and have him attempt to speak with the Zuma, or at least gather some basic intel? That's the time-honored mission of Ambassadors throughout history.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

They do have some guy down here actually. He seems fairly reasonable enough too. Also an ambassador. Not sure how much scouting he does. Not sure if that really makes much of a difference, but hey, he seems like a reasonable person to talk to.

[Glaumring the Fox]

We have an Ambassador there and I will also head down there when I have time.

[De-Legro]

Does it not bother you that your satisfaction with the Zuma is apparently at least partially based on privileged OOC knowledge you gained by long-term friendships with other players that not all players have access to? That would bother me.

You really like to attempt to read between the lines don't you. My satisfaction has nothing to do with what I know. I was satisfied with the Zuma when I played in D'Hara, back when I was a greenhorn who knew nothing about how they worked. My knowledge means I can sometimes see the cause of Zuma actions when others don't, sure but I like the Zuma regardless, I like the challenge and difference they add to Dwilight, and in my opinion a force like the Zuma is great for a frontier orientated continent.

It is time to face facts, Dwilight is NOT the same game as the other islands, just as BT is not. The Zuma are part of the difference. If you feel the Zuma ruin your experience, then probably this is not the island for you, just as if you felt invasions were nothing but a hindrance to your game, BT would not be the choice for you.

By the way, there is no rule against anyone knowing the mechanics behind the Zuma, there is a rule about Devs just giving away info they gleaned from the code. The majority of us avoid dealing with any part of the code that isn't related to whatever task we are currently working on, be it the doctrine upgrade, bugs or whatever. We do this so we aren't tempted to firstly use our knowledge in game, since that would obviously be a OOC abuse, and so we aren't tempted to just post everything whenever threads like this come up. People did work out the majority of the recruitment system for the invaders on BT, it is possible to work these things out.

[Vellos]

You really like to attempt to read between the lines don't you. My satisfaction has nothing to do with what I know. I was satisfied with the Zuma when I played in D'Hara, back when I was a greenhorn who knew nothing about how they worked. My knowledge means I can sometimes see the cause of Zuma actions when others don't, sure but I like the Zuma regardless, I like the challenge and difference they add to Dwilight, and in my opinion a force like the Zuma is great for a frontier orientated continent.

I was fine with the Zuma when you were playing in D'Hara too.

But John: you haven't played near the Zuma in over 2 years. You like the challenge you have never faced, the difference with which you have not dealt. The Zuma today are not like the Zuma of two years ago. Its nice that you think the Zuma is great for a frontier oriented continent. It's convenient that they aren't on your frontier.

The problem, Vellos/Glaumring, is that all you see are problems; you need to be looking for possibilities. Perhaps you need to pause your DWI characters for a while, and come back when your attitude improves.

No, the problem is that I see so many possibilities in ZumaMaster, and see so many possibilities in Battlemaster, and vastly prefer the possibilities in Battlemaster. Yes, I see things that can be done in ZumaMaster. And they are woefully inferior to things that were in the works before the recent chain of events.

Please don't act like I haven't given any consideration to anything the Zuma do. I have.  On this thread and the other I have offered quite a few different theories about things the Zuma might be interested in, and noted how each of them was an inferior result.

Why don't you appoint an Ambassador to the Zuma, and send him down with no troops but a dozen scouts, and have him attempt to speak with the Zuma, or at least gather some basic intel? That's the time-honored mission of Ambassadors throughout history.

There are good reasons not to send an Ambassador.
1. They might ask for him to submit to torture, which could lead to some random incriminating message coming up, which would make things even worse
2. The ambassador might come across as "arrogant," which would lead, if Barca's example is to be believed, to even more problems
3. There is nothing to gain by it.

The Zuma have nothing to offer. They need food. We already have gold. They have CS; we have enough for our needs. If Astrum came marching down on us, maybe that would change. But the Zuma have done a good job of getting the humans to be friendly with each other.

That said, a character in Terran has expressed an interest in the role. Though it's against my (and Hireshmont's) better judgment, they'll probably be sent as a semi-permanent ambassador, OOCly because the Zuma are now the only game in town, and I'd like the players in Terran to get a chance to do something. Apparently the brewing conflicts of the last few years need to be put on hold for a while; to keep my realm entertained, I'll send an ambassador. ICly Hireshmont will do it because he hates Garret and would like to have another human have Haktoo's ear.

[De-Legro]

I was fine with the Zuma when you were playing in D'Hara too.

But John: you haven't played near the Zuma in over 2 years. You like the challenge you have never faced, the difference with which you have not dealt. The Zuma today are not like the Zuma of two years ago. Its nice that you think the Zuma is great for a frontier oriented continent. It's convenient that they aren't on your frontier.

No, the problem is that I see so many possibilities in ZumaMaster, and see so many possibilities in Battlemaster, and vastly prefer the possibilities in Battlemaster. Yes, I see things that can be done in ZumaMaster. And they are woefully inferior to things that were in the works before the recent chain of events.

Please don't act like I haven't given any consideration to anything the Zuma do. I have.  On this thread and the other I have offered quite a few different theories about things the Zuma might be interested in, and noted how each of them was an inferior result.

There are good reasons not to send an Ambassador.
1. They might ask for him to submit to torture, which could lead to some random incriminating message coming up, which would make things even worse
2. The ambassador might come across as "arrogant," which would lead, if Barca's example is to be believed, to even more problems
3. There is nothing to gain by it.

The Zuma have nothing to offer. They need food. We already have gold. They have CS; we have enough for our needs. If Astrum came marching down on us, maybe that would change. But the Zuma have done a good job of getting the humans to be friendly with each other.

That said, a character in Terran has expressed an interest in the role. Though it's against my (and Hireshmont's) better judgment, they'll probably be sent as a semi-permanent ambassador, OOCly because the Zuma are now the only game in town, and I'd like the players in Terran to get a chance to do something. Apparently the brewing conflicts of the last few years need to be put on hold for a while; to keep my realm entertained, I'll send an ambassador. ICly Hireshmont will do it because he hates Garret and would like to have another human have Haktoo's ear.

Nothing to gain? You don't consider perhaps reducing or eliminating the misunderstanding that lead to the Zuma being a threat to your realm as a good gain? Get over the idea that the Zuma are different. The same GM is playing them as always. He is following the same restrictions as always and follows the same game plan he set up from the beginning. They are acting differently mostly because there is ALOT more interaction with the Zuma now, and all that entails.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Good gods man, you really have some obsession with the Zuma.

Did you know that internally the Zuma have not given you a second thought until that letter from Terrence?

That means a few things to me.

1. You pissed off someone in a HUMAN realm enough that they want to have you destroyed.

2. You pissed of someone in a HUMAN realm who is apparently cunning enough to use forged letters and a commoner to pass it to the Zuma.

3. This pissed off individual in a HUMAN realm apparently knows enough about the Zuma that he/she was confident enough that Terran would be in trouble.

4. You really know nothing at all about how your realm factors into what the Zuma do.

Let me give it to you straight from the guy who does get enough messages to know more or less what the Zuma give their attention to.

They do not actively care about your realm. If you did not continually insist on going into their regions and annoying the hell out of them, then they might very well even forget you existed. In fact, your regular food shipments stopped a while ago, and I didn't make a fuss about it, and the daimons didn't mention it either.

After all, you generally don't go out of your way to swat a bug unless it's constantly buzzing in your face.

So what makes me confused, is why you seem like you really really want to be that annoying fly that gets swatted. And now that the scary powerful being has taken out the fly swatter, you start crying about how he's holding the fly swatter and how that's not right or something to that effect.

Well dude, I'm going to tell you right now, and even though I can't speak for the Zuma GM, history suggests what I'm about to tell you. If you stop talking to the daimons, stay put in your current regions, and play nice with the HUMAN realms, then really, even the scary western neighbors won't do anything to you.

Is it that hard to understand? But no, you'll say "Then what's their purpose?"

Well, that's the Catch-22 really. You can either take the risk and maybe be disappointed. Or you can avoid that risk and get nothing. You can't have it both ways you know. Right now you're disappointed. You don't like it. You think there's no way to recover the situation.

Solutions I present to you (I predict you will refuse them for whatever reason you make up):

1. Leave the realm. If that's not good enough for you... Leave the continent. You've played long enough to know how to deal with disappointment and inconveniences to your enjoyment.

2. Stop bothering the daimons. I am not !@#$ting you here. I am seriously telling you that if you actually make it clear that you have no interest in Zuma affairs, have no ill will towards them, and back this up with your actions in which you absolutely ignore the daimons, then really, they most likely won't care about you either. Maybe they might move through your regions if someone else pisses them off, but that's not very common, and you won't suffer long for it.

3. Modify your plans. Like, duh. It doesn't require a GM faction to put a wrench in everything you do or have ever done. Someone like Allison Kabrinski could just as easily !@#$ your entire !@#$ over if she wanted to, and unlike the daimons, she has more sinister weapons called religion, deception, and propaganda. No, I won't explain this.

[Norrel]

and play nice with the HUMAN realms, then really, even the scary western neighbors won't do anything to you.

The Zuma making people "play nice" is one of the things people are complaining about.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

And if you don't then someone gets the idea to set the Zuma on you. It's a vicious cycle huh? Well you know...with all those people so pissed off at SA (Like Everguard, Thulsoma, Caerwyn) I'm surprised there still has been no such cunning attempt against them. And they're much higher profile than Terran.

Yeah, there was a little something but that was never as utterly bold as the forged letter against Terran.

So that just suggests that human realms can have their conflicts, and even destroy realms they don't like, without daimonic interference. It's been going on for years now.

If anything, the problem arises from people insisting on trying to poke the daimons. They think they're boring if they do nothing. They complain about them if they do anything.

Er...what, just what the heck do you want? And don't say "get rid of them".

[Indirik]

The Zuma making people "play nice" is one of the things people are complaining about.

They're not making me play nice. My character is treating the Zuma like any other realm. I have no intention of letting the fact that they are a GM controlled faction influence the way that I react to them. So far this interaction has been limited, I'll admit. That would have changed, but apparently FangFang isn't going to end up in a region with me, so I won't be able to talk to him.

Anyway, I plan on, as much as possible, dealing with them like any other realm. Maybe that will get Astrum crushed under waves of unstoppable daimon hordes. Maybe it will get them to leave me alone. Who knows? But I'm not going to let that make me "play nice" with the other human realms so I can be ready to defend humanity just in case the Zuma attack someone. Because, honestly, there are a couple realms that Brance would be happy to see go up in smoke.

[Bedwyr]

That makes sense then; explains the difference.

But... but... I still don't understand what happened. Do they just not cause "An enemy is approaching" messages to happen? I guess all of Asylon's lords could be coordinatedly lying to Terran. It's possible. I don't find it highly likely.

Are the "an enemy is approaching" messages working, period?  I've sure never seen them work consistently.

[De-Legro]

Are the "an enemy is approaching" messages working, period?  I've sure never seen them work consistently.

Aren't they only sent to a subset of the realms nobles in any case? The region lord and maybe his knights? Perhaps the Duke as well I'm not sure there.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I personally was rather surprised and a little bit disappointed when Garret sent out the ultimatum about the two new Astroist realms. I don't think we had even been a realm for a weak before we got accused of "plotting against the Zuma" somehow. I have spoken ooc with several players in Kabrinskia who haven't even spoken up about this in the forums, and we all agree that it's BS. I'm not going to let some NPC faction effect how I play, however. Even if there is something to figure out, it seems more like an ooc quest than an ic one, so there's no point in my character going out of his way to do stuff for me, the player. I think that's the problem a lot of people have with the Zuma. In order for you to find out anything about them, you have to go against what your character would think or do. Which kind of violates trying to play my character how I want to play him.