Zuma/Daimons

[Vellos]

Just like our own realms, the Zuma have disagreements, power struggles and the like, they aren't a hive mind.

No, just a schizophrenic mind.

But, jokes aside; you either dropped a fairly large piece of IC information forum that you got ICly, or you got a very large piece of IC information OOCly elsewhere and just posted it on a public forum, or you don't have evidence of that, and are speculating. I'm not saying the Zuma don't have factions; just saying that news regarding Zuma v. Zuma conflict would be quite novel and quite important. I've personally never ruled it out; kind of kept it as a back-of-the-mind hypothetical, but never seen any evidence that suggested Zuma disunity.

About GMs: that makes sense.

[Vaylon Kenadell]

And your character was pestered for several weeks to share information, and chose not to. Which just shows the same problem as we had in the Fourth Invasion: from the GM's perspective, the information is all out there, "lots" of people know. But from player perspectives, actually a very few people know (and more know because they are OOC friends or on IRC a lot, which is an entirely different issue).

For various reasons, it would not be in-character for him to talk about it. But I, the player, am dying to share everything I know.

[Bedwyr]

Yes, I'm wondering how the Manifest Path is going to react when they discover that there are plenty of humans uneaten by Daimons in the Zuma lands...

"We must liberate these subjugated humans from their daimonic oppressors."

^ This.  The Manifest Path (or at least Koli) is aware of this.  Koli is also aware that the Daimons turned entire villages on Beluaterra into barbeque pits.  He's assuming that the humans in Zuma lands are more or less equivalent to cattle and horses in human lands: Useful, and tasty.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

That there are different relations the daimons have within their own ranks is nothing new.

Read about the meeting between a Lefanis, a Chenier, (Oh boy, you know where this is going...) and Vates. And read the part where Ira appears and Vates stands off against Ira. It's on the wiki.

Next, read, also on the wiki, about Neel Arya going through the Zuma lands. How there was a priestess called Banti, a Zuma who spoke for at least some of the daimons, and who was subservient to them. Read about how there were different opinions about the outside humans, especially the remark about Agri hating humans and Banti's reply.

Also in Neel's wiki page on the subject is the event in the Ruins where Vates is revealed to be a unique case (Nothing new). There are other wiki pages that are never marked as being limited knowledge, so if you really wanted to you could have found all this information.

What does this suggest? That...uh, daimons are individuals too? Just letting you know that a lot more info is out there than some might at first believe. There are also pages from Lina Unti, and..er...well there was something from Rathan Himoura.

Yeah, these come from human sources, not all of them are that reliable, but that's the nature of these things. I've done real life research, and while I didn't specialize in historical research, I have done that before as well, and it's really hard and tedious finding sources and organizing them by things like when they were written and the possible social groups the writers fit in, all to find out whether the stuff those "eyewitnesses" wrote actually matched with each other.

Obviously don't strain yourselves doing it for a game. But for those with the time and the will, try searching the wiki for the terms "Zuma" or "daimon" and see what shakes out of the tree. Then compare the different pages and use reasoning to fill in some blanks.

[De-Legro]

No, just a schizophrenic mind.

But, jokes aside; you either dropped a fairly large piece of IC information forum that you got ICly, or you got a very large piece of IC information OOCly elsewhere and just posted it on a public forum, or you don't have evidence of that, and are speculating. I'm not saying the Zuma don't have factions; just saying that news regarding Zuma v. Zuma conflict would be quite novel and quite important. I've personally never ruled it out; kind of kept it as a back-of-the-mind hypothetical, but never seen any evidence that suggested Zuma disunity.

About GMs: that makes sense.

Really? You guys never noticed the disunity at all? Sure to my knowledge no battles are fought, but it should be pretty obvious by now that promises made by some Zuma, and information provided by them is contradicted by others.

[Velax]

But even if none of that happened, I have yet to meet someone who described the area, like you know, how Grympen Mire is...a mire. Or how the Ruins of Walfurgisnacht has a crumbled tower. Or how Dragon Song has a huge temple structure.

From when Terrence was in Dragon Song:

Roleplay from Terrence   (22 days, 19 hours ago)
Message sent to: Haktoo
Terrence walks silently through the apparently abandoned temple complex of Dragon Song, one hand on his sword hilt. He was tense - he had already been attacked by wild animals in the plains outside the temple. The animals hadn't gone down easy. They were savage, bestial things, more so than any wild animal he'd ever encountered before, and they seemed different. He couldn't quite put his fingers it, but they were...changed.

He shook his head. Best to keep his mind on his current situation. It certainly didn't seem any safer in here than out there. This temple complex seemed abandoned, but the adventurer kept catching glimpses of movement out of the corner of his eye. He'd stopped looking after the first few times, as there was never anything there when he looked. Just the countless dragon statues lining the walls. Some of them looked liked they'd been smashed apart, long ago, and put back together less than perfectly. He wondered if they'd been broken when the people of this temple turned against the great dragon of the Roost. Either way, he didn't like them. The eyes seemed to follow him as he walked through the temple, even those of the broken ones.

"I've had about enough of this," he thought. "Time for something different."

Terrence cups his hands to his mouth and bellows, "Haktoo! I am here, as ordered!"

His call echoes around the temple interior and he leans against a wall, one hand on his sword hilt, and waits.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Kudos to you. I did say that I, specifically, didn't see any such RP. So if the GM did, well then it's good to know that stuff is being used.

[Vellos]

Really? You guys never noticed the disunity at all? Sure to my knowledge no battles are fought, but it should be pretty obvious by now that promises made by some Zuma, and information provided by them is contradicted by others.

Actually... no, not really. I've never seen one Zuma say something would or wouldn't happen, and another Zuma engage in actions to contradict that.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Likewise, I'm sure the ruler of Summerdale does not know all the internal politics of, say, Madina. And we all take that as granted because there are a lot of different characters played by different players that have their own agendas.

But I think there is an unconscious double standard when we talk about a GM-controlled faction. As far as we need be concerned ICly, those are all different characters. It is only OOCly that we know the characters are all played (currently) by one player. Should that make a difference? It's the number of characters and the characters' different agendas that matter, not the players.

This is a point made even clearer by the arguments posed when people say that on continents where you can play two characters, the second character gets no treatment. This is true for some perhaps, but just as much this is not true.

So, forgetting for the moment that there is only one GM controlling all the daimons, what really suggest, ICly, that the daimons are so unified?

Actually, for a more local example that can be appreciated (Since a counter might be that Terran is just bordering the Zuma): Did you always suspect that Flavia would win in Barca?

[Vellos]

Likewise, I'm sure the ruler of Summerdale does not know all the internal politics of, say, Madina. And we all take that as granted because there are a lot of different characters played by different players that have their own agendas.

But Terran does know the internal politics of Aurvandil, Madina, Barca, D'Hara, Asylon, and to some extent the Lurias and Kabrinskia. ANd I imagine other realms keep tabs on neighbors' internal politics as well.

Actually, for a more local example that can be appreciated (Since a counter might be that Terran is just bordering the Zuma): Did you always suspect that Flavia would win in Barca?

After the Zuma threatened to destroy Barca if Flavia was not elected, yes, I expected Flavia to win. I was actually surprised it was even close. I was a bit surprised (well, not surprised; just disappointed) that the Zuma opted to put someone in power who has no known major stance on any of the political issues that have defined Barca in the past and who has chosen not to be involved in as much RP with other realms as with the GM; but it made since given that Flavia did interact heavily with the Zuma, apparently.

So, forgetting for the moment that there is only one GM controlling all the daimons, what really suggest, ICly, that the daimons are so unified?

1. When Haktoo says, in effect, "I am offended," daimons like Flame and Screamer and FangFang show up with armies to pursue the grievance
2. (Aside from one or two RPs on the wiki, which are quite old, and seem more irrelevant now as they date from when there was a second GM), there are no known instances of any observable disagreement among the Zuma
3. Haktoo holds all council positions doesn't she? I actually could be wrong on that one, I honestly don't know, but I assumed as much. If she does, that implies a similar degree of non-factionalism as Overlord to me as a player; and to Hireshmont as a character, it says that Haktoo is in complete control of everything
4. The Fourth and Fifth Invasions had divisions and factionalism within the GM factions: and it was clear and discernible that factions existed (even within each faction) if you put in any reasonable effort to interact. The Zuma have not shown similar behavior; it has never appeared evident that factions existed.
5. Garret has reliably spoken to represent the Zuma on the whole. Yes, Garret is unreliable; still, it leads to that perception.

They're otherworldly beings. Why would we assume they have internal conflicts like ours? Aren't we supposed to stop thinking like human nobles?

[Indirik]

After the Zuma threatened to destroy Barca if Flavia was not elected

Supportive quotes, please.

[Vellos]

Supportive quotes, please.

I'll admit it's hearsay; but it's hearsay from both Flavia herself, her supporters, and her detractors. I haven't heard it from the Zuma directly. So it could be completely made up by the Barcans; but they at least claim to have heard it credibly.

[Galvez]

Letter from Flavia Constantia O'Duibheannaigh   (14 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (20 recipients)

....

Many things prompted me to do this, but first and foremost, is the Zuma; you will not know this but, I have been in talks with the Zuma Magnate Screamer in my lands of Twainwood, and he has relayed my pleas for the safety of our Republic in turn to the Potentate Haktoo, upon her Nightscree throne. I can tell you with great confidence that this invasion won't end with the handing over of the last unique weapons, Screamer made it clear that Barca was to appease the Zuma, and they failed, only managing to anger the Zuma further.

....

Screamer, in concordance with Haktoo, has declared that they want an end to this conflict, but cannot do so when they perceive so much "arrogance" and "disregard" from our current leaders, and so Screamer tasked me with enacting change in the Republic, so that we may have an end to bloodshed and war, and in stead, be reconciled. I have pleaded the case of our people and our republic, and they have listened, and Screamer halted the massacres occurring in Twainwood, if we are to survive, we must forge a new path in this world, and though our old government served us well in our years of colonial expansion, it is time for a new government to take form.

.....

Flavia Constantia O'Duibheannaigh
Senator of Twainwood

[Galvez]

After reading as far back in this thread as possible, I would now like togive my opinion about the Zuma:

When I joined Dwilight, I started in Pian en Luries and upon its creation joined the realm of Giask which was eventually destroyed. I moved to an area what was very close to the Zuma, but had little experience in dealing with them. Neither many of my realm mates who are mostly new players. But when we took Eregon, we did so because we knew the Zuma did not claimed these lands, and we did not knew we had to ask them permission before taking it. When Garret contacted me about it he confirmed that the Zuma does not claim Eregon, however informed me that we did have to ask the Zuma for permission. We could have known this if we actively searched for history about the Zuma, but that isn't the case. But I believe everyone has learned from this and it will not happen again.

Garret asked for soem sort of appeasement, but couldn't tell us what the Zuma desired. So after speaking with Chief Magistrate Hireshmont and King Glaumring we decided that an offering of food woul dbe agood idea. So we offered them 500 bushels for failing to ask their permission. Then Garret replied that they wanted the 500 bushels, but desired 4 unique weapons in good condition as well.

We had no unique weapons, neither did Terran and D'Hara. So my first thought was that we would never be able to get them. However with the aid of our allies, we came a long way in attaining the weapons. However time became an issue. The Zuma demanded impossible deadlines, and did cared less if we could live up to them or not. The weapons came from all corners of Dwilight, they had to be shipped to Barca and then repaired. It is a procces that takes time, time they didn't gave us. And because we didn't met the deadline, they came with more daimon armies and threathen to destroy Barca.

They started to complain about Eregon too. Due to a referendum a Lord was elected. They were angry because we weren't supposed to appoint a Lord or hold on to Eregon for that matter. Two things that were both beyond my control. And when I wanted to discuss things about Eregon from the first moment of this conflict, Garret ignored me. After some repeated letters all he said about is was as followed, "focus on attaing the unique weapons, Eregon is of later concern". I had to put some trust in Garret he said, and by doing that it seems I angered the Zuma even further.

They tell us nothing, but act furiously when you aren't able to read their minds.

Maybe the Barcans were rude too; wouldn't surprise me. Julius can be abrasive.

Julius indeed can be abrasive. He also knows to who he can be abrasive, and Zuma are not among those. I have been very polite with Garret from the beginning, I have apologized for every 'transgression' on our part, and I have always been straightforward that we desire a peaceful co-exsistence with the Zuma based on mutual respect for each other and each other's culters and ways.

If I could chose, I would chose for an all out PvP Dwilight without the Zuma. Why are they even there?

[Indirik]

Letter from Flavia Constantia O'Duibheannaigh   (14 days, 21 hours ago)

While that is an interesting message, it is not proof. Not only does it not claim that the Zuma said "Elect Flavia or we will destroy you", but only a very slanted interpretation could extract that meaning from it. (At least from the extracts you have posted.)

Even more importantly, this is not a message from the Zuma. It is a message from another player, who can claim anything they want to support their own agenda.